Talk:Robert C. O'Brien

Awards

I removed the "Awards" section because it was reading a little too much like a CV. If someone wants to reinstate it please feel free to do so, but under such circumstances I will post a "BLP cleanup" heading.Editfromwithout (talk) 00:29, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Trump’s Hostage Envoy Takes On an Unlikely Case: ASAP Rocky

Maybe good for something. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:40, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Article title

Can we come up with a better disambiguator than "attorney"? It seems he is best known for his government work, as hostage negotiator and now national security advisor. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:03, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

In thinking about it, maybe we could move this article to "Robert C. O'Brien" without a disambiguator. Now that he is National Security Advisor he is arguably the primary topic, much better known than the other Robert C. O'Brien. The other one by that name (which was actually his pen name), Robert C. O'Brien (author), is less well known - although he did win a Newberry Award for Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH. What do others think about this idea? Would it be WP:RECENTISM? -- MelanieN (talk) 17:20, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

National Security Advisor trumps Rats of NIMH, methinks. Though it is a good book. Thmazing (talk) 03:33, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

The "pen name" part is less relevant, as it's the name the late author is best known by. NSA O'Brien is definitely more notable now for his positions in government than for being an attorney (consider "Richard M. Nixon (attorney)"), but maybe we should wait at least a mooch before elevating him to primary topic.--NapoliRoma (talk) 05:25, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Given his increased prominence, I think moving him to "Robert C. O'Brien" without a disambiguator makes sense. Stope (talk) 02:25, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Age ?

Isn't it known when he was born ?Hausbrucher (talk) 17:22, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Good question. I couldn't find an age in any of the articles about him. We also don't know when he graduated college, which would give us a clue. I'll keep looking. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:13, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Well, here’s a clue: he graduated college in 1988, so he probably graduated high school in 1984, so he was probably born around 1966, so he is probably around 53. That, however, is Original Research and cannot be used in the article. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:14, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Somebody just added a birth year to the article, with the edit summary The September 18, 2019, Matthew Brown article "New national security adviser worked on Romney presidential campaign" in Deseret News states O'Brien is 53. Let me see if I can find that reference and then we'll figure out how to handle this. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:13, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Got it! If he is 53 now, that means he was born in either 1965 or 1966. That's what we put in the article. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:28, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

"Highest ranking Latter-day Saint in politics"

What metric is this? In my opinion, a Senator is higher. Are we just going by the article that said it? That doesn't seem like enough to me. Thmazing (talk) 03:30, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, according to United States order of precedence, senators and governors are senior, among others. Although that hierarchy may not quite be the same as "in politics." Stope (talk) 13:34, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Attendance at segregated college in South Africa

Asked User:Snooganssnoogans about changes that may be vandalism or a political agenda to add irrelevant information to this entry. Stope (talk) 17:31, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Do other editors agree that it is proper to describe political conditions in the place a subject attended college in the Education section of an entry? Stope (talk) 17:33, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

I changed your text[1] which suggested O'Brien was leading student protests against apartheid into what the cited RS actually said about him: he attended a whites-only university at a time when South Africa was a pariah state and widely condemned for apartheid. What exactly is your problem with this change? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:38, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

My edit simply reflected public reporting that students were attempting to desegregate the college; previously an IP had inserted language implying without citing research that O'Brien supported segregation. However, to remedy this, rather than reverting, I suggest removing the reference to segregation and apartheid altogether, or simply stating he attended the school during the "Apartheid era" without additional political commentary about South Africa at the time (which could still be linked to). I can find no other article on a prominent official that describes the political situation in a section that is intended simply to list where the subject went to school. Including that reference insinuates potential support for such policies even though there is no published research cited to support this. For example, the entry on Jimmy Carter notes that he attended Georgia Southwestern College, Georgia Institute of Technology, and the U.S. Naval Academy, without noting that all were whites-only at the time or that the political jurisdictions in which those institutions were located had policies of segregation. Inserting that could imply Carter supported those policies where there is no reliable public research indicating that to be the case. Hence the section just lists where he went to school and what he did there. I suggest the same should be true with this entry. Stope (talk) 02:21, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I was asked to take a look at this subject. I oppose any mention of "segregated", "whites-only", "apartheid", or anything else along those lines unless there is evidence that he took part in activities pro- or anti-apartheid, or that his education under that system influenced his later actions and life. I see no such evidence now and I think any such description of the school he went to should be deleted. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:36, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

So we appear to have a choice between a version that calls attention to the segregated, whites-only nature of the school, implying that he went along with that approach; or a version that implies that he was some kind of anti-apartheid crusader. Neither implication/approach is supported by the sources. The first source is a dead link; the second just says he went there and goes into great detail about its racist philosophy but does not link it to him personally; and the third doesn't mention him at all. I'm going to remove any reference to the university's racial policies, pending some kind of Reliable Source saying why it matters in his case. -- MelanieN (talk) 01:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

I've removed it, along with the dead link and the reference that doesn't mention him. Now let's talk about what we can say based on Reliable Sources, -- MelanieN (talk) 01:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

An IP has once again attempted to insert references to policy in South Africa at the time O'Brien attended college there. I removed the edit. I also removed the citation of an article he appears to have written two years before attending college that did not pertain to his education, and which misrepresented a quote of someone else as his own opinion. Stope (talk) 22:02, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

An IP, User:66.190.170.37, continues to attempt to attempt edits previously sought by User:Snooganssnoogans to tie O'Brien to apartheid. This has included repeated attempts to cite O'Brien as the author of an 1985 article by a different Robert O'Brien written by a reporter for the Baptist Times. At the time, two years before O'Brien even studied in South Africa, he was a sophomore in college and a Catholic. Stope (talk) 13:22, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 27 May 2020

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. BD2412 T 04:34, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Robert C. O'Brien (attorney) → Robert C. O'Brien – I propose to remove the disambiguator (attorney) from the title, because he appears to be the WP:Primary topic for this name. Also because the disambiguator (attorney) does not adequately describe his career or notability, which arises primarily from high national office. He is the current United States National Security Advisor, and prior to that he was the Special Envoy for Hostage Affairs. He also held several high positions, mostly with an international focus, in the George W. Bush administration. His article is viewed hundreds to thousands of times a day.[2] The other subject with the same name, Robert C. O'Brien (author), is a much less frequent search target, averaging 50 to 70 views a day.[3] The author should be recognized by a hatnote at this retitled article. MelanieN (talk) 19:15, 27 May 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 00:45, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Thmazing, NapoliRoma, and Stope: Pinging previous discussants on the topic. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:31, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• I support/encourage moving from "(attorney)" for the reasons above, but the other O'Brien did write a well-known children's book. NSA O'Brien will certainly have more visibility while he's NSA, but afterward I would expect that to drop precipitously. Maybe "(government official)"?--NapoliRoma (talk) 14:16, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I've felt this way a long time. I support the change. Thmazing (talk) 23:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom. A clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in a WP:TWODABS situation. If things change in the future, the title can change then too. Station1 (talk) 06:47, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Coronavirus

Proposed addition to "personal life" section:

In July 2020, O'Brien became the highest-ranking U.S. Government official so far to test positive for the SARS-COV-2 virus.[4]

2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:5B74 (talk) 18:34, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

This is already in the article, just above the personal life section.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 19:05, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. It even looks like the relevant sentence is duplicated there: maybe that could be fixed. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:5B74 (talk) 05:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

 Done. Station1 (talk) 06:28, 28 July 2020 (UTC)