Talk:Rubens (disambiguation)

Requested move 23 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus to retain Rubens as a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to Peter Paul Rubens. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 18:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

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Rubens (disambiguation) → Rubens – No article actually named "Rubens". Jax 0677 (talk) 22:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• Leaning opposed, as the nominator has not provided a rationale that has any discernable relationship to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:48, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• People are often known by their surname, and the painter definitely is, so the initial proposal isn't right. Let's use this opportunity to analyze the usage statistics a bit:

Expand for extended statistics chatter

https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Peter_Paul_Rubens doesn't show the hatnote within the top 20 outgoing destinations for February '24. There's a huge amount of organic interest in this topic so the ratio isn't necessarily relevant, but the relative lack of interest among the outgoing destinations might be.

I looked into the clickstream archive parts I have downloaded so far:

• clickstream-enwiki-2020-11.tsv:Peter_Paul_Rubens Rubens_(disambiguation) link 58

• clickstream-enwiki-2023-08.tsv:Peter_Paul_Rubens Rubens_(disambiguation) link 174
• clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv:Peter_Paul_Rubens Rubens_(disambiguation) link 81
• clickstream-enwiki-2023-10.tsv:Peter_Paul_Rubens Rubens_(disambiguation) link 63
• clickstream-enwiki-2023-11.tsv:Peter_Paul_Rubens Rubens_(disambiguation) link 83
• clickstream-enwiki-2023-12.tsv:Peter_Paul_Rubens Rubens_(disambiguation) link 83
• clickstream-enwiki-2024-01.tsv:Peter_Paul_Rubens Rubens_(disambiguation) link 87
• clickstream-enwiki-2024-02.tsv:Peter_Paul_Rubens Rubens_(disambiguation) link 76

So it's consistently being clicked (appears in every month that I see), but the volume isn't really impressive.

Let's look at all-time monthly page view statistics for the redirect and the disambiguation page - the latest ratios are:

• 133 vs 1445 = ~9.2%
• 131 vs 1483 = ~8.8%
• 113 vs 1359 = ~8.3%

This sounds like consistently >90% of traffic that lands on this page after following the redirect doesn't click the hatnote.

So all in all this still seems like a reasonable primary redirect. A more coherent argument, based on either usage or long-term significance, should be made instead if we want to make changes here. --Joy (talk) 10:33, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, Rubens is a justified primary redirect to Peter Paul Rubens. 162 etc. (talk) 17:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support Peter Paul has 23,065 views but Rubens Barrichello has 20,993, the 2001 footballer has 372, the album has 56, the 1928 footballer has 52, the film has 50 and the horse has 10[[1]]. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:38, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Rubens Barrichello is not known in reliable sources as "Rubens". 162 etc. (talk) 21:09, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  • Reply - Can anyone prove that Peter Paul Rubens is known as "Rubens"? --Jax 0677 (talk) 21:29, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

    When you do e.g. a Google Books search for Rubens, do you see "Rubens: A Genius at Work" (2007), "Gender, Politics, and Allegory in the Art of Rubens" (2005), "Rubens" (2004), "Rubens and the Eloquence of Drawing" (2017), "Rubens & Brueghel: A Working Friendship" (2006), ...? It's not uncommon for the artist to be referred to mononymously in that field. The same search does bring up other topics, but it's just more people with the same surname. We could ponder if the mass of all other Rubens outweighs the artist, perhaps? --Joy (talk) 21:59, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

    Try searching Google Books [2][3][4][5] or Google News [6][7][8][9] 162 etc. (talk) 22:01, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  He's still plausibly known to the average English reader as a Rubens or one of the Rubens'. That argument would be more persuasive if we saw some clickstreams to Barichello in https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Rubens_%28disambiguation%29 though. --Joy (talk) 22:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, seems to be a reasonable primary topic redirect. older ≠ wiser 20:48, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:PRIMARYREDIRECTs like Vermeer, Picasso, Mondrian and Rothko. —  AjaxSmack  16:12, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support – Since the name Rubens is broad enough to represent more than one direct relationship, in addition to the artist. Svartner (talk) 14:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Peter Paul Rubens is the primary topic on grounds of long-term significance. Egsan Bacon (talk) 02:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

post-move

In April '24, https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Rubens_%28disambiguation%29 showed 147 incoming views. We know already this is partial, because incoming redirect traffic isn't counted [10], so we have to look at those separately [11] which shows another 134 + 136 + 0 + 1 = 271 views of incoming redirects. So that should be 418 views in total.

Outgoing clickstreams in turn could identify only 25 to Peter Paul Rubens (~6%). --Joy (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, the "post-move" heading is slightly misleading as this page was not moved (at least not since 2007).

Also, just FYI, perhaps you already know this and are choosing to provide more specific details, but if you select "Include redirects" on the Pageview Analysis for Rubens (disambiguation), you get the same 418 count without the extra manual calculations.

And I'm not sure what to make of this, but the Wikinav confusingly says there were 291 incoming views and then says the actual number is 147. However, the Numbers in Context provides a summary breakdown for the incoming views with a total of 291 views -- although even more confoundingly, the percentage of views in that same section uses 147 as the denominator. older ≠ wiser 19:59, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

The title is largely in reference to "Reubens", which did move. Thanks for the tool hint! Overall, I think this might be a testament to merged lists not being great for measurements. We just can't tell how many readers distinguish the 'u' from the 'eu' variant unless we split them up. --Joy (talk) 09:26, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I hadn't even known about that move discussion. older ≠ wiser 10:36, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

In May, there were a total of 245 incoming views, and clickstreams could identify 60 visits to Peter Paul Rubens, 11 to Paul Reubens, 10 to Arnold Frans Rubens, and 10 to the Reuben's Restaurant. --Joy (talk) 09:13, 17 June 2024 (UTC)