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Talk:Polish Legions (Napoleonic period)

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September 23, 2012Good article nomineeListed

Accuracy dispute: The Haitian campaign edit

The section of the article about Poles in Haiti is internally contradictory, contradictory with the historical record, and contradictory with mainstream accounts. The citation here is a 1995 email reviewing a book, which is not a particularly good citation (and draws conclusions unsupported by even its own interpretation of the book).

Undisputed historical facts:

  • Some number of Poles left the French forces to join the rebelling slaves.
  • Those Poles served essential functions, since in contrast to the rebelling slaves, they had formal training and could operate artillery, act as engineers, etc.
  • "Polanders" were included in the first few Haitian constitutions with status of "Noir." Whites were banned from owning land, otherwise, and most were killed or expelled from Haiti. Poles could settle there.
  • We were left with 200+ years of strong camaraderie between Poland and Haiti since then, and this has moved into the identity of both nations.

Where there are contradictions between narratives is how this happened:

  • Who initiated? Poles? Haitians? Both
  • What size units defected (individuals? large groups? etc.?)
  • What were the key motivations?
  • What was the total number of defectors? Secondary sources typically land at around a half-thousand, but there's a large spread.
  • Germans. The Haitian constitution lists both. There are accounts that this more-or-less refers to the same Poles. There's a complex argument about Poland being partitioned, identity, and ethnicity. There are also accounts of a group of Germans who sat out the hostilities.
  • Etc.

I don't think this is the place for original research, and I'm not sure the article should get into this level of detail.

Contradition with Polish Haitian Article edit

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Haitian

Disagrees with the write-up on this page. The section on this page criticising the ideas used in /Polish_Haitian seem to fail the NPOV test.

For example, the title is "The disastrous Haitian campaign" Disastrous for the French, successful for the freedom-seeking Haitian slaves. Similarly: "In Haiti there still is a popular myth... In fact, the actual desertion rate was much lower" Referring to what seems to be a contested bit of history as a 'myth' implies it's known-false and saying 'in fact' takes on a voice of authority inappropriate for a contentious issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.166.35.218 (talk) 22:20, 7 December 2015 (UTC)Reply



Rename edit

Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I think this article would benefit from renaming into Polish Legions (Napoleonic period) or just Polish Legions (Napoleon). While the legions were formed in Italy, they are usually associated with France and Napoleon. While in Poland it's common to call the formation 'Legiony Polskie we Włoszech' (that's the name on article on pl wiki), in fact they served outsdie Italy for the most time (Legiony Polskie z Włoch' - Polish Legions from Italy - would me more correct, as that's where the unit originated). French Wiki has the article under Légions polonaises (armée française) (and Polish Legion (France) or Polish Legions (French Army) can also be considered.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

I find the above argument quite convincing. How about Polish Legions under Napoleon a.k.a. Polish Legions in Italy, to coincide with Polish Legions page which does not include brackets, i.e. Polish Legions in World War I, Polish 1st Legions Infantry Division, Polish 2nd Legions' Infantry Regiment etc. --Poeticbent  talk  19:13, 24 February 2007 (UTC)Reply
That's also a good idea.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  04:16, 26 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

Napoleon's Relations with the Poles edit

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The last sentence of this article states, "Yet even today the memory of Napoleon's Polish Legions is strong, and Napoleon himself, despite the cynical way that he treated the Poles, is often regarded in Poland as a hero and liberator." This is totally outrageous Napoleon saw the Poles amoung the best foreign troops in his service, Their were the Polish Lancer of the Old Guard, the Vistual Legion, and the troops of the Grand-Duchy of Warsaw were of an extremely high caliber as well. Józef Antoni Poniatowski was amoung his greatest independent Marshal. His first son was born to him by a Polish mistress who wanted to accompany him in exile both times!! Where did this notion come from that Napoleon did not respect the Poles? He had his doubt about the Grand Duke of Warsaw, August of Saxony, but that was only because the poor old bastard was insane. I suggest this part is ammended to say that Napoleon had nothing but respect for Poland and the Poles. See Eltings Swords Around a Throne. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jak1985 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Merge from 2nd Polish Legion edit

Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

That article seems to be about 114th Demibrigade, a unit of the Polish legions. It is poorly structured, and named. I think we should try to salvage what we can here and redirect it.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 21:22, 7 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

Not sure how to fit the information in here and don't want to mess up a Good article. I will leave the information below so you can take that you need out of it.

In November 1802 the 2nd Polish Demibrigade was assigned to fight the insurgents of the Haitian Revolution. At the same time they were to be redisignated as the 114th French Demibrigade of the Line, as had previously been done with the 3rd (Danube) Polish Legion when they had been sent to the colony earlier that year. On 16 December outside the Ducal Palace of Parma, Italy they were formal informed of their redesignation and that officers and men would gain French citizenship through naturalisation. On 1 January 1803 while based in genoa, their full strength was put at 2,851. The main force left embarked on board the three ships, the L'argonaute, Le Fougueux and Le Heros on January 24, 1803, departing on January 27. A further 475 sailed boarded the La Vertu and La Serpente on January 29, making a total of 2,447 men leaving for Haiti.[1]

References

  1. ^ Pachonski Jan, Jan; Wilson, Reuel K. (1986), Poland's Caribbean Tragedy: A Study of Polish Legions in the Haitian War of Independence 1802-1803, New York: East European Monographs {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |lastauthoramp= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help)

B-class review edit

Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 21:22, 7 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

Low moral due to fighting Italians edit

Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I cannot find any ref to justify keeping the following in the body. Feel free to restore, with an appropriate ref. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 04:12, 10 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

Further, Poles had a natural sympathy for people fighting for their own independence and saw the Italian cause for independence as similar to that of their own; yet they were used by the French to put down uprisings (like that in the Papal States).

GA Review edit

Latest comment: 11 years ago65 comments2 people in discussion
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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Polish Legions (Napoleonic period)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hchc2009 (talk · contribs) 08:06, 15 September 2012 (UTC)Reply

Will read through properly and start the review tomorrow. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:06, 15 September 2012 (UTC)Reply

OK, I think that's done now. Some copyediting issues and some other small bits, but if they're fixed, should be good at GA. Hchc2009 (talk) 09:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)Reply
Got back from travelling last night - will read through tomorrow! Cheers, Hchc2009 (talk) 20:02, 27 September 2012 (UTC)Reply
I've made one minor tweak, and I think its good to go. Nice work. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:19, 6 October 2012 (UTC)Reply

Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct;

  • "were several Polish military units that served with the French Army" - is it possible to put a number as to how many units there were?
    • A bit tricky, due to issues covered at "Timeframe and numbers". If historians are not fully in agreement as to the timeframe, there cannot be a clear argument about the numbers. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 21:04, 24 September 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • " and were considered a Polish army in exile" - did just the French consider them this, or did other combatants too?
  • "Within historiography there is a degree of uncertainty about the period in which the Legions existed." - I'm not sure you really mean historiography here; did you mean "Amongst historians there is..."?
  • "Magocsi et al." - you'll need to expand the et al. I'd also expect to see the historians' full names (e.g. John Smith, rather than Smith) the first time they appeared in this format.
  • It's the bit in the main text that's the issue, rather than the citation. They're appearing as people in the text, and they'd therefore normally be introduced by full name. I won't die in a ditch over it though! Hchc2009 (talk) 16:19, 6 October 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • "Demographically, most of the soldiers came from the ranks of the peasantry" - you could delete "demographically" without changing the meaning of the sentence if you wished.
  • "Paris was the seat of two Polish organizations pretending to be a sort of government-in-exile" - are you happy about the verb "pretend" here? (which could be felt to be POV, if not backed by the literature)
  • "Jan Henryk Dąbrowski, a former high-ranking officer in the army of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, began his work in 1796 – a year after the total destruction of the Commonwealth – when he went to Paris, and later, Milan, where his idea received support from Napoleon Bonaparte, who saw the Poles as a promising source of new recruits, and who superficially appeared receptive to the idea of liberating Poland." This is rather a long sentence and probably needs breaking in two somewhere.
  • Capitalisation of legions - sometimes you have "legions", other times "Legions" - it needs to be consistent
  • " were seen as among the most pro-French foreign forces in the Cisapline" - seen by who? (if its not critical who, then you could just say "were among the most...")
  • " From a Roman representative, Dąbrowski obtained a number of trophies that the Polish king" - should probably be "Dąbrowski obtained a number of trophies from a Roman representative, that the Polish king..."
  • " the Ottoman standard subsequently" - as you haven't mentioned the standard before, I'd suggest "amongst these was an Ottoman standard which..."
  • "part of the Legions' symbols" - I'm not sure about the use of the word "symbol" here, as its usually used to refer to an emblem rather than a standard.
  • "Soon afterward, supplies from the captured Gaeta fortress allowed the creation of a Legion cavalry unit" - do we know what kind of supplies these were?
  • "Within about a year since their formation" > "Within about a year of its formation"
  • "the Legion reached about 10,000" > "the Legion had become about 10,000 strong."
  • "the anti-French coalition advanced upon Italy" - I'd lost track of who the anti-French coalition was by this point, as I don't think it had been made clear in the previous sections.
  • War of the Second Coalition: Italian front. I'd combine para's 2 and 3, which would help the text flow better.
  • " became part of the soon besieged garrison at Mantua" - the "soon besieged" doesn't work well as a phrase for me. Suggest "became part of the garrison at Mantua, and were soon placed under siege by..."
  • "Finally, at the end of the Siege of Mantua (April–July), the French commander François-Philippe de Foissac-Latour decided to release Polish soldiers – then under Wielhorski – into Austrian custody as the Austrians claimed them to be deserters; this marked the end of the Second Legion, as only a small number of Poles were able to evade capture (the French were allowed to withdraw most of their forces under the condition that they would remain neutral)." - another very long sentence that could do with being broken up into two.
  • "With the disappearance of the Cisalpine Republic, the Legions would be reorganized in France" > "the Legions were reorganized in France". You might want to consider "With the collapse of the Cisalpine Republic" or "With the end of the Cisalpine Republic", as disappearance seems a bit odd here.
  • "were reorganized near Marseilles as the Italian Legion (La Legion Italique) into a 9,000-strong unit " Did you mean "were reorganized near Marseilles into the Italian Leigion (La Legion Italique), a 9,000 strong unit," ?
  • "In 1800[3][19] or 1799[6] (sources vary)" I'd suggest "In either 1799 or 1800," - you probably don't need the sources vary bit, and I'd start with the earlier of the two dates.
  • "Legion du Rhine" - why is this not in italics when the other foreign names are?
  • "According to Davies, it would suffer significant casualties" - unclear by this point in the paragraph what the "it" is; if its the Legion, I'd name it rather than using a pronoun.
  • "The size of Legions decreased after the Treaty of Luneville (9 February 1801), which made no mention of Poland." is there a link between these two events? Also "the Legions".
  • "The Legion was transferred to police duties in the Kingdom of Etruria" - which Legion?
  • "1st" - previously the article has used "First". Same with the "2nd"/Second.
  • "Demi-Brigade Étrangère" - inconsistent italics again.
  • "most of the disgruntled legions" - is it true to call them legions by this point, as they've been reorganised into brigades? Or would it be more accurate to say "Legionaries"?
  • "The Haitian campaign proved disastrous for the Legion" - which legion?
  • "reduced the 5,280-strong Legion" - the plural legions have become a singular "legion" again here.
  • "and tropical diseases (like yellow fever)" - I'd suggest "tropical diseases, including yellow fever,"
  • " in the wilds of the Caribbean" - I wasn't sure about this phrase. Was Haiti really "wild", as opposed to just unhealthy?
  • "By 1805, during the War of the Third Coalition, the Polish troops in Italy had been renamed the 1st Polish Legion (1e Legion Polonaise) and attached to the Kingdom of Italy.[26] In 1806, all that was left of the old Dąbrowski and Kniaziewicz's Legions was one demi-brigade, consisting of one infantry regiment and one cavalry regiment, now in the service of the Kingdom of Naples." - Are these two sentences talking about the same troops? (I was a little confused)
  • "Although some chose to remain with the French forces, and fought in Italy under the Kingdom of Naples" - this seems to be repeating the previous section a bit.
  • " from the newly allied Polish territories" - is this the Polish state referred to previously? If so, isn't it a singular territory?
  • "When Napoleon was forced into exile on Elba, the only unit he was allowed to keep as guards were the Polish Lancers.[28] " - isn't this sentence out of sequence?
  • "Napoleon used the Poles as a source of recruits with little desire" - should presumably be "Napoleon used the Poles as a source of recruits and had little desire"

(b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

Factually accurate and verifiable:

(a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout;

(b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;

(c) it contains no original research.

Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;

  • It comes out gradually, but I really wasn't 100% clear as to what sort of units the Legions comprised/made up. For example, was a Legion the basic unit, or was it broken up into battalions etc.? How big was a legion? There must have been a 1st Legion, but did they all have numbers, etc.? Were they mainly infantry? If so, were there riflemen, or where they all muskets? etc. Basic stuff, but it isn't very clear at the moment.

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each.

Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

Illustrated, if possible, by images:

(a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content;

(b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

  • "Polish Legions soldier in Italy" - unclear if this meant that the reconstruction was in Italy, or that the reconstruction was of a soldier in Italy. Also worth labelling it as a reconstruction.
  • The positioning of the images seems to be predominantly up at the top of the article. Could any "general" images, e.g. 'Vistula Legion' Polish infantry, be moved into an imageless section down below? This would avoid the right-hand "column of images" you get on a screen like mine. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:49, 16 September 2012 (UTC)Reply

As I was not notified on talk, I've just noticed this review. I'll try to respond to all issues within 1-3 days. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:48, 23 September 2012 (UTC)Reply

Big statements edit

Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

"the Legions became legendary in Poland, helping to spread the civic and democratic ideals of the French Revolution throughout the country.[1][30][35][36]"

Why would Poles need "civic and democratic" ideals of French Revolution when they had deeper and actually established ideals of their own before those? What is attempted to be said with this sentence? It is flying in the air, the sentence does not mean anything, it is shallow and empty. What ideals? where and when, for who?

Overall I believe this is a personal insight and should not be here. Poles did not seek revolution, they searched for independence. The writer forgot that Polish constitution was before French revolution it seems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KTTdestroyer (talk • contribs) 15:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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