Talk:Photography in Sudan/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 15:48, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Happy to review the article. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:48, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello Amitchell125, I just reverted your insertion of the template on Culture of Sudan, not because I don't think it is useful, but because it pushes several photos down, so they don't correspond to the text on the left any more. If you know of a way to both insert the template and to keep the photos in place, please let me know. Thanks, Munfarid1 (talk) 17:42, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Assessment

Some initial comments

• Add italics to titles of books, etc. (see MOS:ITALICS for more information): On Photography; The People of Kau (image caption); National Geographic.
• Am I right in assuming that Sudan includes the Republic of the Sudan and South Sudan together, as well as what was once Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, or is the term used to refer to a larger geographical area?
• According to MOS:SECTIONSTYLE, section titles should "not redundantly refer back to the subject of the article". The present headings need to read something like: 1 Colonial period; 2 Post-independence (1956); (2.1-2.3 -see my comment on over-sectioning); 2.4 Travel photography and photojournalism; 3 2020s; 3.1 Digital photography: a new generation; Commercial challenges and political expression; 4 Contemporary photographers; 5-7 (as read).
• The lead section is currently too brief, with no mention of the following: early Sudanese photographers such as Gadalla Gubara and Rashid Mahdi; other early photographers, such as George Rodger; the Sudan Historical Photography Archive; photography during the 1950s-70s; Die Nuba (1974); Travel photography and photojournalism in Sudan, particularly with regard to the political situation; the new generation of photographers that have emerged in the last decade. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section for why some or all of these need areas in the article to be included.

Links

.... Lead section

• The link to historical does not lead to History, which readers might assume it would (see MOS:LINKCLARITY - "The article linked to should correspond as closely as possible to the term showing as the link, given the context".). Consider adding it to a 'See also' section.
• Ditto use of photographs.
• ...modern and contemporary photographs… - consider amending to 'contemporary and modern photographs', so that the two links do not look like a single one (see MOS:BLUESEA).
• Anglo-Egyptian rule leads to Turkish Sudan and not Anglo-Egyptian Sudan.
• Link cameras.
• Link consul (Consul (representative)) and diplomat in both the caption and the text.
• Unlink internet (common word - see MOS:OL).

.... 1 Photography in colonial Sudan

• The link Greek leads to Greeks in Sudan, I would amend the text so that it is clear where the link goes to.
• MOS:DUPLINK states that it can be helpful for a link to be duplicated "at the first occurrence after the lead". I suggest linking Sudan; photographs; cameras.
• Link Khartoum; British military persons (British_Army#British_Empire_(1700–1914)); early technology of photography (History_of_photography#1850_to_1900); Sudanese flag.
• Imo Rashid Mahdi could be red-linked, as he warrants his own article (WP:REDBIO helps here).

.... 2 Photography in Sudan after independence (1956)

• Link Sudan's flag and independence (both in a caption).
• Unlink literature and music from within the quotation (see MOS:LWQ, " link only to targets that correspond to the meaning clearly intended by the quote's author").
• Are any of the photographers listed here and elsewhere in the article notable enough to warrant their own article? If so they can be 'red-linked'.
• Imo you should unlink voyeuristic relation, as it is within a quotation.
• Link Leni Riefenstahl in the caption.
• Link photojournalist (and remove duplicate links lower in the text).
• Link Nubian pyramids at Meroe in the caption.
• Carol Beckwith and Angela Fisher - link these people together (Carol Beckwith and Angela Fisher). For some reason the article discusses both women.
• Link civil war; human trafficking (Human trafficking in Sudan); Eastern Africa; displacement (Forced displacement, consider changing the text to 'forced displacement').
• Link UNHCR in the caption.

.... 3 Photography in Sudan after the 2010s

• The link to online tariffs leads to Mobile telephony. Not sure why.
• Link Facebook; billboards.
• Fine art photography should read 'fine-art photography'.

.... 5 External links

• Matson Collection link - it's worth adding that there are 186 images, almost all taken in 1936. Consider mentioning that there is a category in Wikicommons devoted to the collection.
• The Sudan Historical Photography Archive should be linked to its "home page" (http://sudanphoto.uofk.edu/en/about.html).
• I would amend the Claude Iverné link to something like 'Photographs from Claude Iverné: Bilad es Sudan a 2017 exhibition of images by the French photographer Claude Iverné, from New York’s Aperture Gallery.
• Claude Iverné, Alice Franck. Khartoum, capitale en mutation - it would be informative to add '- a portrait of Khartoum during the 2000s, including documentary photographs by Claude Iverné (in French)'.
• A History of the Sudans – in pictures - add 'since independence (The Guardian, 8 December 2014' (amend History to 'history').
• Ditto for The many faces of modern Sudan – in pictures.
• City in Change: Photographic Stories from Khartoum, 2015 - 2014, according to the link. This clip and the one before it are both from the same event.
• City in Change: Photographic Stories from Khartoum, 2015 is from the same event the following year. I would make that clear in the text.
• Photo story on "Youth of today in Sudan" by Mohamed Nureldin Abdallah - amend to Youth of today in Sudan by Mohamed Nureldin Abdallah (published by Reuters in 2014). Only the title of the photo story needs to be linked.

.... 6 Further reading

• I don't see the point in linking Rodger, as it can't be accessed from the link.

Please feel free to query me on the above points. It could take more the usual week for you to make any necessary amendments if you wait until I've done the whole review. I'm happy about you taking more than a week, but feel free to start addressing the above issues before I've completed things from my end. More to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:47, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

1 Photography in colonial Sudan

• Some of the text in the last paragraph closely resembles this CNN article. Iit needs to edited so that it doesn't.
• "certainly the most sophisticated and one of the major African photographers of the XXth century." Remove the italics here, MOS:NOITALQUOTE states that it is not good practice.
• Remove italics from Nile Expedition.
• Major-General Charles George Gordon, not General.
• University Library Sudan Archive in Durham, United Kingdom - consider amending to Sudan Archive at Durham University in the UK, as all archives are kept in the library.
• ...as cameraman for film.. - '...a film cameraman….
• Ref 2 (NYPL) doesn't provide information, only images, and ref 3 (BL) isn't good enough either.
• Ref needed for Beato information, and for the third paragraph.
• Imo Ref 5 needs to be included in a Notes section, as it's not a citation. Any other examples (e.g. ref 29) should be moved too.
• ...by a Danish researcher… - amend to '...by the Danish researcher Elsa Yvanez...'.
• ...the first Sudanese photographer who received professional training… - how do you know he was the first?
• Refs 8 and 9 needs to be written as correct citations.
• ...Rashid Mahdi (1923-2008) - you have given dates here, but not for others throughout the article. There needs to a consistent approach throughout the article.
• Neither of the references for Claude Iverné (refs 10 and 11) refer to Iverné's work as being important - unless you can cite it, the word should not be used, (see WP:PEA).
• The quote about Mahdi should not be in italics. Ref 12 (the link to http://www.elnour.org/) is not needed.
• ...to present a collection of about 12.000 digitized images… ref 13 does not appear to back up this claim.
• ...have been called… - who by?
• In 1951, he published his photo essay in the widely read magazine National Geographic. Not cited.

Failed this time

Sadly, I fear there is simply to much work to be done on the first two criteria for GA to allow the review to continue. Sections 2-4 look as if they will need as much work as the other sections, in terms of how well it is written and cited. I suggest you address the issues I have raised and check the rest of the article for similar problems, and then renominate it. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:15, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Amitchell125 (talk), and I am happy to go through your careful annotations and helpful suggestions. Don't know, however, how long this will take to improve, but I will certainly apply again for GA status. Best regards, Munfarid1 (talk) 19:28, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

You're welcome, it was a fascinating subject to read up on, thanks for all your effort on the article so far. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:02, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello again Amitchell125 (talk), after quite a number of hours, I think I have managed to include all changes that you had so diligently recommended. I learned a lot, not only about more details of the topic, but also about formatting of notes, references etc. ;) Now I am lookimg forward to your next feedback, and perhaps assistance, in case another wikipedian with a rather self-centered attitude might delete three of my pictures again. (The exchange with him is here: Talk:Photography of Sudan) - I have explained why they are important, and reverted them. Best regards and thanks a million for your guidance. Munfarid1 (talk) 17:36, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Referring to your suggestion on category in commons on the Matson Collection, I decided rather to add more pictures to this category:"Category:Photographs of Sudan - Wikimedia Commons". commons.wikimedia.org. Retrieved 2020-05-27. This is also where the category "Photographs of Sudan in the Matson Collection" is located, so readers should be able to find them easily. Munfarid1 (talk) 12:27, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello Amitchell125 (talk), sorry to bother you again, but perhaps you will have some time to comment on my thorough reworking of the article? There is also a discussion on the talk page with another user, who has flagged quite a few issues that I have almost all fixed. Still, I would like to invite you to have a look at that discussion called Review late May/early June 2020 and maybe give your opinion, too. Anyway, thanks a lot for your interest and help! I have learned an amazing amount on this topic, and on the history of photography in Sudan and East Africa in general. Best regards, Munfarid1 (talk) 16:22, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello Amitchell125 (talk), let me try one last time to find out, if you have time for your final assessment? I would appreciate it very much, if you could have another look at all the improvements I made following your suggestions. Thanks for your answer, Munfarid1 (talk) 11:59, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

@Munfarid1: Just got your messages. The correct procedure for you to follow (I think) is for you to renominate the article using the instructions at Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Instructions. Best of luck! Amitchell125 (talk) 18:27, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Hello again, as I have followed your advice and renominated this article in July, 2020, without anyone having picked up a new assessment for GA, let me ask you again, if you would like to review it. As far as I was able to, I have taken care of all of your suggestions and it would certainly be easier for you than for anyone else to review it again. After all, it seems to be the first article about photography in an African country and probably would be interesting to a wider readership. (In the meantime I have asked two other experienced editors, but they declined...) In any case, thanks for your time and answer, Munfarid1 (talk) 16:28, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Hello Munfarid1, I'd be pleased to review the article, I'll start in a few days. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 16:31, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Amitchell125 Wonderful, and thank you very much for your assistance. Looking forward to your comments! Munfarid1 (talk) 16:42, 4 March 2021 (UTC)