Talk:Kurdistan Workers' Party insurgency

German Support PKK

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References

Casualties

I have posted around 20 referenced sources about casualties including external operations. But for some reason, the site is constantly being changed to different casualties. No the crisis group is not a valid reference. The site itself claims; "Crisis Group assumes that total PKK fatalities are higher than this public tally." The crisis group is not a valid reference. But for some reason all the sources i have sent with years of background, including terorsehitleri.com which has literally every single turkish soldier killed by terror organizations as far as 1970 including their name, picture, place of death, date of death, cause of death, the place they were buried at, the last place they were serving in, their rank, their birth date, their birth place, name of father, name of mother, their level of education, their marital status, number of their children, background and the places their names were given to (like schools etc.) Including some civillians and teachers aswell. Yet you claim crisis group which says their sources are unreliable, is a reliable source. TRAVERA1 (talk) 09:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for using the talk page. First of all, the conflict with the SDF/YPG already has its own page (see Turkish involvement in the Syrian civil war). And there the total Turkish losses are around 300 in total, which includes the cross border operations agaibst both, ISIS anf the YPG. The crisis group is a recognized neutral source and has been very accurate with its numbers on southeastern Turkey and northern Iraq. Their latest numbers are 1,443 Turkish losses. Even if you would add the Syrian war losses it would be around 1,700 losses in total. You on the other hand use unreliable sources and mix it up and get something above 2,000 losses since 2015... how? Look up at the Turkish losses from Operation Peace Spring and Olive branch. If you add that all up you won't even come close to 2,000 losses. Besides this, adding now the Syrian conflict to this page is unnecesary as I said earlier, it already has its own page, literally.It only makes this page more confusing and harder to read. So my idea is to remove the spillover part of Syria, as it already has its own page, and just focus on southeastern Turkey and Iraq. Perhaps add a link on the page for the YPG conflict in syria. SarajevMoska (talk) 10:24, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

and on the crisis group part, they are the only neutral source that does its research well. Of course they won't always be 100% accurate regarding the PKK losses. So what are you gonna do about that? Just use Turkish sources then? This is Wikipedia and it should remain mostly neutral. At least thats my opinion. SarajevMoska (talk) 10:27, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Its staying neutral, i havent been using state ran sources as references. But really, if you look at it, the amount of PKK militants that ive gathered up on all the other sources match up with the Anadolu Agency's last toll on PKK losses. 35k~

Same with turkish losses, tally up all the sources, you get 2000+.

I suggest u to check out the Kurdish–Turkish conflict (1978–present)#Before 2012 ceasefire and Kurdish–Turkish conflict (1978–present)#Since 2013: from ceasefire to new confrontations. Includes the casualties pre-2015, which the crisis group doesnt have any info about TRAVERA1 (talk) 13:52, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

The pre-2015 losses were not from the crisis group, they were official Turkish reported losses. But even after 2015 the Turkish reported losses and the crisis group reported losses were almost equal. Now however you come up with something above 2,000 killed since 2015 which is simply impossible. You are adding up multiple sources with each other which just becomes chaotic. You also changed the PKK losses to above 100,000... Thats simply ridiculous. In Turkish they usualy use the term neutralized for that. Even if those numbers would be 100K that would not mean that they were all killed.

I also just noticed that your since 2015 added security losses are completely wrong as well. How did Turkey lose 733 securty forces in just a few months in 2015? Even more than 2016, when most of the fighting and attacks happened? I,m gonna remove that as well cuz your sources are completely wrong and you mixed everything up.just look at thjs repiort from cnn Turk in 2017. It says that since 2015 1,212 security forces were killed. Your numbers are 100% wrong as you mix up multiple sources.https://www-cnnturk-com.org/v/s/www.cnnturk.com/amp/turkiye/iste-2005-2017-arasinda-sehit-verilenlerin-ve-gazilerin-sayisi?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=Van%20%251%24s&aoh=17009220876349&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnnturk.com%2Fturkiye%2Fiste-2005-2017-arasinda-sehit-verilenlerin-ve-gazilerin-sayisi SarajevMoska (talk) 14:26, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

indepdent sources as this https://www.crisisgroup.org/europe-central-asia/western-europemediterranean/turkey/turkey-s-pkk-conflict-death-toll put the number on 40.000 and not the older unrealistic claims used by unreliable sources. Shadow4dark (talk) 08:54, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

That page is outdated. The fiercest point of conflict happened after that article was released, see #Casualties TRAVERA1 (talk) 14:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the PKK casualties after the article was released (mid-2016), 30k more PKK members have been killed. The page also doesnt include any of the YPG casualties, nor any captured members. It also doesnt even have enough reliable evidence to show how many members were killed each year. but the current ones do.

They are also not the most reliable either.

"The Swedish ONG Transnational Foundation for Peace and Future Research proved in 2005 that the ICG board of directors' had close ties to Western governments (PKK support considering the USA supports them.), a lack of independent scholars, and an absence of an objective standard theoretical framework. https://web.archive.org/web/20070928061220/http://www.transnational.org/SAJT/pressinf/2005/pi219_IntCrisisGroup.html"

altho the current sources dont really seperate captured or killed so it would be better if it was 108k killed or captured. and im not too sure if the year by year #casualties section include casualties from external operations. so there might be whole 23k casualties that needs to be removed TRAVERA1 (talk) 14:33, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

still other reliable sources put the death toll on 40.000 https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/1/13/turkey-launches-airstrikes-against-kurdish-rebels-in-iraq-and-syria. And these sources are more reliable then aa see WP:RSPSS yes you are correct that the numbers will climb up if you add ypg casualties but you need replace the unreliable sources and seperate the pkk and ypg casualties as it does not match the above sources. Shadow4dark (talk) 14:52, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

i didnt just use AA, only for the most recent casualties most of which arent even government led agencies. like memurlar.net

Al jazeera havent even done a proper background research about the casualties of the entire war either they just put that at the end of the page which is just about some air strikes turkey has conducted. I can pull any page that is unrelated to the actual topic as long as it has "more than 40k have been killed since the start of the conflict." and call it a day. it doesnt specifically say 40k, nor 40k PKK members, if you combine all the casualties of the conflict it totals up to 85k. TRAVERA1 (talk) 13:55, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

look my point is other sources put the number on 40.000 if you want include ypg it need be separated as it does not match overal casualties. Also this page is primarily a pkk conflict and not Turkish- Kurdish conflict Shadow4dark (talk) 15:40, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

YPG and PKK are the same thing, PKK has been fighting alongside YPG in syria and many pictures of YPG members are seen with flags and patches of Abdullah Öcalan (founder of the PKK, and not related to the foundation of the ypg or ypg itself, yet YPG still uses him as their idol). They have the same ideologies and leaders.

Theyre both also apart of the Kurdistan Communities Union (KCK). The belligerents tab also includes PYD/YPG alongside PKK.

The whole entire page itself includes and mentions YPG many times and also includes operations conducted by Turkey against YPG.

By your saying how we should seperate YPG from PKK because "they arent the same thing", you should completely erase YPG from the page. TRAVERA1 (talk) 13:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree, ypg should removed here as they are one of the primary opponents here Turkish involvement in the Syrian civil war and not inside Turkey. But both their total casualties need be put here and the infobox needs a update Kurdish–Turkish conflict Shadow4dark (talk) 17:13, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Should we still include the information by https://www.memurlar.net/album/10845/iste-yillara-gore-etkisiz-hale-getirilen-pkk-li.html ? I also have shown that ICG isnt the most reliable info as countries and organizations often bribe the Crisis Group to change the statistics TRAVERA1 (talk) 14:21, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes fine, the sources says "neutralized" meaning dead, wounded and surrendered. Shadow4dark (talk) 16:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The term neutralized doesn't go for wounded PKK fighters, its just killed or captured.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkiye/turkish-security-forces-neutralized-44-terrorists-last-week/3131471 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkiye/turkish-security-forces-neutralized-45-terrorists-last-week/3106243 "Turkish authorities use the term "neutralize" to imply that the terrorists in question surrendered or were killed or captured." not wounded. Ao192 (talk) 16:34, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Turkish casualty citations

Why are there so many citations in the casualties and losses part of the sidebar? If it's controversial, 5 or 6 reliable sources should be enough, but 22 citations seems kind of overkill Noob10293 (talk) 16:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Most of the sources talk mention the casualties that happened over a long time period, but dont mention some of the recent years, then the sources that mention casualties happened in the recent years only talk about that one year. and to have a more exact casualties number, there are some sources that only talk about a few Turkish soldiers who were killed very recently Ao192 (talk) 05:33, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 May 2024

Link "AA" in (AA estimate) in the Casualties and losses sidebar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anadolu_Agency Noob10293 (talk) 17:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 19:44, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

PKK’s “supported by” section

The “supported by” section sounds like it was edited by a Turkish nationalist. Half of the countries listed there as supporting the PKK are just not true, and half of the sources are Turkish propaganda. The only countries that are generally accepted to have backed the PKK are Gaddafi’s Libya, Syria, and the USSR. The US source also is talking about the YPG, not the PKK. I also might mention the fact that Turkey has virtually no states supporting it, despite the huge support they received from other NATO states. It creates this weird Turkish nationalists vision of Turkey somehow being against the world, when in reality it’s quite literally the opposite. Please remove most of these countries at add the countries that backed Turkey Serok Ayris (talk) 17:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

"I personally consider myself a Communalist and Apoist. My main inspirations include Murray Bookchin, Abdullah Ocalan and many other PKK leaders like Mustafa Karasu and Bese Hozat."

This is in your account page.. Ao192 (talk) 05:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Okay? I’m acknowledging my biases. Doubt you could ever do the same. So what, I’m still right. This page looks like a Turkish nationalist’s fantasy. The world is not in some grand conspiracy against Turkey, and none of the sources even conclude what putting those countries in the “supported by” section would imply (at least not any of the good sources that aren’t Turkish propaganda) Serok Ayris (talk) 04:19, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

there are blatant pictures of american soldiers with YPG members with their flags bright and their uniforms shining.. so turkish propaganda? most of the countries that "support pkk" are claims made by the turkish government and is said so next to the name of the countries Ao192 (talk) 15:58, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

and other than the countries that support pkk which turkey claims, none use turkish sources as a primary source Ao192 (talk) 16:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)