Talk:On the Issues (magazine)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. The article itself now needs copy edits. UtherSRG (talk) 21:55, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

---

On The Issues (magazine) → On the Issues (magazine) – Restore to standard English capitalization per WP:MOSCAPS. relisted --Mike Cline (talk) 14:50, 20 March 2012 (UTC) Tassedethe (talk) 16:03, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. At Wikipedia:MOSCAPS#Trademarks it says, "follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules for proper nouns", and at Wikipedia:MOSTM#General_rules it says, "Capitalize trademarks, as with proper names." This article title should be handled like a proper name, a trademark, the name of an organization. At Wikipedia:Naming conventions (companies), the situation specific to this case is not mentioned, but the guideline does allow the word the to be capitalized in an organization's name. Binksternet (talk) 16:17, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

  I'm sorry but by that logic the proper noun The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would be The United Kingdom Of Great Britain And Northern Ireland. The "... standard English text formatting and capitalization rules for proper nouns" means that words such as "the", "and" "of" etc. are lower case. Tassedethe (talk) 16:43, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

  Your example does not apply because the UK does not represent itself with capitalised "Of" and "And". The magazine certainly does, and it is trademarked that way, becoming a proper name. (What a waste of time this is! Why bother to do anything here except to add whatever redirect pages appear necessary?) Binksternet (talk) 17:17, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

  From WP:MOSTM:"Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, regardless of the preference of trademark owners." (my emphasis). Tassedethe (talk) 17:30, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is in the business of stopping such silliness as Macy*s and [yellow tail]—I understand this. What sort of silliness is a capital T in "The", especially when capitalized "The" is specifically allowed by Wikipedia:Naming conventions (companies)? Why do you think that a capital T in "The" is so wild and crazy that it draws attention to itself? Of course it does not. This article title does not go against our guideline which seeks to put a stop to outrageous uses of punctuation and formatting in company names, trademarks and brands so that the name is not unduly emphasized. On The Issues has none of that undue emphasis. Binksternet (talk) 18:05, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

  Capitalizing a leading article "The" is specifically allowed. The "the" in "On the Issues" is not a leading article. "Leading" means "in the front". This "the" is in the middle. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:09, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support (even speedily) per WP:MOSCAPS. "Capitalize trademarks, as with proper names" would still yield "On the Issues" (just like other proper names Peter the Great or Bob the Builder or Democratic Republic of the Congo). The guideline "allows" (recognizes that it's correct) to capitalize "The" at the beginning of an organization's name ("leading articles"), but not here. See also On the Water (magazine), Word on the Street, Top of the Pops (magazine), Up the Academy, etc. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:26, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

  Also WP:COMMONNAME, per almost all available RS news coverage of the magazine:

  • "Merle Hoffman, publisher and editor-in-chief of On The Issues magazine, " New York Post, December 2, 2010

    Whups, looks like they let the PR sneak by once. "Merle Hoffman, publisher and editor in chief of On the Issues magazine." New York Post, November 11, 2010

  • "Merle Hoffman, editor of the feminist magazine On the Issues, " The Times, May 17, 1997
  • "Merle Hoffman, editor of On the Issues, the Progressive Woman's Quarterly" Buffalo News, December 2, 1995
  • "Ms Merle Hoffman, publisher of On the Issues, a feminist magazine" The Australian, October 12, 1995
  • "Phyllis Chesler and Merle Hoffman are, respectively, the editor at large and the publisher/editor in chief of On the Issues magazine," Los Angeles Times, October 9, 1995
  • "says Merle Hoffman, publisher and editor of On the Issues, " Salt Lake Tribune, February 11, 1994

  -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:35, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support - per User:JHunterJ.--ukexpat (talk) 15:28, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support per MOS:CAPS. Agree with everything Tassedethe and JHunterJ have said. Jenks24 (talk) 04:08, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
• Weak oppose - I see this as a coin toss, in which case the default is to keep the status quo of uppercase T. The magazine's official name clearly includes the uppercase T -- and their graphics emphasize the initials "OTI". Most publications use essentially the same MOS rules as Wikipedia; some of them use the uppercase T (the books Encyclopedia of American Journalism and Encyclopedia of Women in Today's World, both cited in the article; and this book) and others use a lowercase t, as listed by JHunterJ. This is not at all clear-cut (neither choice is wrong), so I see no particular reason to change the status quo. --Orlady (talk) 15:33, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support; our manual of style is quite clear, as is standard capitalization practice we all learned in school. Capitalize articles only if they're the first or last word in a title. Powers ^T 15:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose; the subject calls itself "On The Issues". I'm rather wary of letting wikipedia's internal style guidelines overrule real-world usage; our job is to document what happens in the real world, even though it's sometimes inconsistent and messy, rather than tweaking things so they line up neatly in our own scheme. bobrayner (talk) 14:09, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

  Real-world usage is "On the Issues" (see the reliable sources I quoted). The subject's stylistic Use Of Capitals is exactly what Wikipedia's (with a capital-W) internal style guidelines are supposed to address (correct, overrule). See also WP:MOSTM's examples like Time (magazine) and Kiss (band). -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:22, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support per MOS:TITLE: most words are capitalized, but generally not prepositions and articles. Also, re the status quo, note that the entire prior history of the article was edits by Binksternet, which are valuable to be sure, but should not imply prior consensus. ENeville (talk) 16:05, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.