Talk:Elaeis

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Some of the articles regarding palm oil's role in environmental damage are inaccurate and biased. 'Cruel oil' for example is an over-generalisation and an overly emotional document not based on sound reasearch. There is also an ulterior motive of promoting soybean oils. It should be removed from the link's page.

The destruction of the rainforests in South-east Asia (situations vary considerably in Indonesia and Malaysia) is caused by certain irresponsible individuals, NOT palm oil itself.

Palm oil is a cheap source of calorie that can combat hunger in the developing.

For more info on Malaysian oil palm industry's role in developing a sustainable agriculture system, read world.http://www.mpoc.org.my/CEO_to_Observer.asp

Palm Oil and its real effects...

Palm oil has an undeservedly bad press. Admittedly there are instances where palm oil plantations are built on rainforest that has already been logged however there are also plantations which pay really very large sums of money indeed on conservation projects as well as leaving large areas of their plantations free as conservation areas. This is often a much better form of conservation than other areas because the oil palm plantations have the rescources to prevent poaching, illegal logging and slash and burn farming in their conservation areas. Other conservation areas however often suffer from government corruption and lack of available rescources from non government organisations which prevents them from having sufficient rescources to prevent the above issues. Also palm oil plantations provide a large source of well paid jobs for local communities as well as direct and indirect infrastructure (for example many companies provide roads, schools and hospitals which are open to local communities, or for another example internet access and phone lines become available to surrounding communities because such services are required by oil palm companies). The article does not appear to show this side of palm oil.

Social and environmental impacts

To the previous 2 unsigned entries and anyone else that comes across ths page. I have just added a very brief section on the social and environmental impacts of palm oil plantations. At this stage it is very incomplete and will be added to at a later stage. The aim is to make that section adhere to Wikipedias Neutral point of view NPOV, some previous edits by unregistered contributors have removed any references to deleterious effects of OP plantations. I would appreciate if this didn't happen again - if you feel my addition have a bias - please discuss them with me and point me to relevant sources/literature. Most of the sources cited so far are website - the aim will be to improve my sources and rely as much as possible on peer-review independent journals rather than grey literature and web sites. However, this will not always be possible. Sepilok2007 (talk) 09:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC) To add; effects on biodiversity (need also to cover type of habitat being converted) carbon balance & peatswamp issue biodiesel +/- for environment RSPO Sepilok2007 09:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Facts'n figures

Someone should find all contradictions in this article. Yield is said to be 22 % or 30 % for pericarp oil. There are probably more errors. --Boongoman (talk) 20:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, under cultivation, Indonesia has (very recently) overtaken Malaysia in terms of production, if someone wants to change that...82.4.82.249 (talk) 22:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Possible sources

These were removed from the EL section (per wp:ELNO), but may be useful as sources... as long as they are wp:NPOV:

• Friends of the Earth UK: Palm oil - rainforest in your shopping
• Center for Science in the Public Interest: Cruel Oil - How Palm Oil Harms Health, Rainforest and Wildlife
• Buckland, Helen. "The oil for ape scandal" (PDF). Friends of the Earth (pdf file). Retrieved 2005-12-14.
• Why is oil palm replacing tropical rainforests?
• The Palm Oil TRUTH Foundation
• Impact of Large Scale Oil Palm Plantations on Local Food Sovereignty

Improvements needed

"The oil palm originated in West Africa but has since been planted successfully in tropical regions within 20 degrees of the equator. There is evidence of palm oil use in Ancient Egypt. In the Republic of the Congo, or Congo Brazzaville, precisely in the Northern part, not far from Ouesso, local people produce this oil by hand. They harvest the fruit, boil it to let the water part evaporate, then they press what is left in order to collect the reddish, orange colored oil."

This paragraph needs some work. There should be a reference to the evidence of use in Egypt. Also, the part about Republic of Congo almost implies that this activity (making oil by hand) is particular to the area. Is that so, or is this the way oil is made in many areas? Unless this very location "not far from Ouesso" is unique, it should not be singled out in an encyclopedic article. Mikeblyth (talk) 03:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

In the Carbon balance section: "Furthermore, as the remaining unprotected lowland forest dwindles, developers are looking to plant peat swamp land, using drainage that unlocks the carbon held in their trees,..." It is explained that drainage unlocks the carbon of the peat, by allowing decomposition. That makes sense. But "unlocks the carbon held in their trees" by drainage doesn't seem right. If it is also correct, it it unexplained. "Pij" (talk) 06:48, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

In the Malayan folkculture section: "It was there that Hindu beliefs mixed with the local Malay culture and started the usage of palm seeds by traditional healers suffixed with tok 'bomoh' or 'pawang' in the local language." What is "tok"? "Pij" (talk) 06:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Still, what is "tok"? And how can a healer be "suffixed"? This whole statement that people can be "suffixed with tok 'bomoh' or 'pawang'" is highly confusing. Perhaps it means that the healers are referred to in the local language as "bomoh" or "pawang", but that interpretation isn't obvious, and still leaves "tok" out of the explanation. I'm tempted to change it accordingly, but I thought perhaps somebody here might know (or have a theory, or even care a little) about this issue, before I change it. "Pij" (talk) 23:35, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124761243738541901.html. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Mkativerata (talk) 00:15, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Information for History and Production of palm oil

Hello, I have some new information to add to this article regarding the oil palm's early history and to bring the production figures up-to-date. This request is on behalf of the Malaysian Palm Oil council, hence I am reaching out to editors via this discussion page message rather than adding this information myself. Right now, the History section does not discuss the oil palm's early history in much detail at all and I've found a couple of references to support the following addition:

Early history text
Evidence of commercial cultivation of oil palms dates as far back as 5,000 years, with evidence found in tombs in Egypt of palm oil's use as a food and consumer good. In the late 1800s, archaeologists discovered a jar containing palm oil in a tomb at Abydos dating back to 3,000 BCE. It is believed that Arab traders brought the oil palm to Egypt.

The above inserted with minor modifications (no jar was found, slight trimming). Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:05, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Sminthopsis84, thanks for looking at this. I see you've not added it here, but in the Palm oil article. I've also put a message on your talk page to discuss this. YellowOwl (talk) 22:23, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Also in the History section, while FELDA is discussed, there is no mention of other development schemes that were established in the 1960s and 1970s. The following addition provides some more detail here:

Development scheme text

FELDA's success led to the establishment of other development schemes to support the establishment of small-farmer oil palm cultivation. The Federal Land Consolidation and Rehabilitation Authority (FELCRA) was established in 1966 and the Sarawak Land Consolidation and Rehabilitation Authority (SALCRA) was formed in 1976. The primary objective of these organizations is to assist in the development of rural communities and reduce poverty through the cultivation of high yielding crops such as palm oil. As of November 2011, SALCRA had developed 18 estates totalling approximately 51,000 hectares. That year the organization shared dividends with 16,374 landowners participating in the program.

Additionally, in the Palm oil production section the figures are quite outdated, referring to the 2005-6 growing season. Here is what I've been able to find for more up-to-date figures:

Production figures for 2011
Worldwide palm oil production for season 2011/2012 was 50.3 million metric tons, increasing to 52.3 million tons for 2012/13. In 2010/2011, total production of palm kernels was 12.6 million tonnes.

The above additions have reliable sources and add useful information, so I hope that someone will add these to the article. Thanks in advance. YellowOwl (talk) 17:06, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

At WikiProject Plants, Sepilok2007 recommended I add a secondary source for the development scheme text regarding SALCRA. I’ve replaced this in the middle box above, now with reduced detail on SALCRA that comes from a secondary source. (To see what the middle box looked like before, here is the archive version of the initial post.) I hope if this is acceptable that someone will add it, and the other two revisions, to the article. Thanks in advance. YellowOwl (talk) 20:49, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I've put the text in on this page as a temporary measure; coordinating it with palm oil needs more work. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:47, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Research

Much of this needs to be rewritten as at the moment it is just an ego trip for MPOB and not supported by reliable sources e.g. "Malaysia's top research entity with the highest technology commercialisation rate of 20% compared to 5% among local universities" what is the sources for this?, how was this measured? Also commerialisation is only one way to assess a research entity - the number of high impact factor publications is another more commonly used matric (and easier to independently assess) Sepilok2007 (talk) 02:38, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I did a quick "Publish or Perish" search and Uni Malaya has a high H score (40) than MPOB (14). I know this is OR, but it suggest that the 'MPOB is the top research entity in Malaysia' statement needs to go, if someone can't provide a decent citation to support this statement Sepilok2007 (talk) 05:48, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Trimmed it a bit. The section was misnamed, it's not about research but about institutions. The text is duplicated on three pages, this one, Palm kernel oil, and Palm oil. I think this copy should go, but don't have a good plan about the other two. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 23:06, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Two pages with confusingly similar names

I would like to rename this page to Elaeis, which is the name of the genus that both oil palm species belong to. I find it confusing that both "oil palm" and "palm oil" pages exist. Changing to the genus name is in line with the policies of wikiproject plants. After the rename, material that is duplicated on the two pages could be trimmed to separate them into a page about the plants and a page about the uses of the plants. Unless people strenuously object, I'll make the move in a couple of days' time. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:19, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

It seems desirable to split out a considerable part of the material on this page to one about Elaeis guineensis, the most-cultivated species. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:01, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Planting

This section contravenes WP:NOTHOWTO, needs extensive trimming. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 23:31, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Summarized text for Social and environmental impacts

{{request edit}} Hello, I've been looking at this article some more, especially in light of Sminthopsis84's notice above about the similarity of this article to the Palm oil article. There are several other articles across which content has been duplicated or does not focus in on the particular topic. I noticed that the Social and environmental impacts section in this article is very long, duplicates a lot of the information from the Environmental impact of palm oil article, is missing references for some information and many references that are there have broken links.

Since large chunks of information were moved to Elaeis guineensis, now almost the majority of the article is taken up by the examination of social and environmental impacts. To bring this article back to its primary focus, the oil palm tree, I've written an alternative summarized version of the Social and environmental impacts section, using what references were salvageable from the current section plus references I found:

Social and environmental impacts replacement text

Main article: Environmental impact of palm oil The social and environmental impact of oil palm cultivation is a contentious topic. While oil palm has provided jobs and improved the standard of living in rural communities by increasing access to health care and education, increased production of oil palm has been criticized in recent years for negatively impacting the environment. Oil palm production has allegedly increased greenhouse gas emissions, endangered indigenous species and impacted natural habitats through draining bogs, burning forests and encroaching on natural habitats in areas where enforcement of environmental laws is lacking. In recent years the oil palm industry has responded to these allegations by developing more sustainable methods of oil palm production and communicating these efforts through organizations including the Indonesia-Malaysia Palm Oil Group and the Malaysian Palm Oil Council. These groups have organized conferences such as the International Palm Oil Sustainability Conference and the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil for the purpose of addressing environmental concerns.

The "allegedly" needs to go. There are too many peer-review published studies that show the impact of oil palm expansion on "endangered indigenous species and impacted natural habitats through draining bogs, burning forests and encroaching on natural habitats". The carbon one depends a bit on which ecosystems are being converted i.e. Converting lalang grass-land to oil palm leads to an increase in carbon stocks, but most other conversion lead to a decrease, with the worst impacts the conversion of Peatswamps. Secondily only a small part of the industry has address the environmental concerns - with many mills in Sabah directly dumping POME into rivers, few are replanting riparian reserves, Peatswamps are still being converted in Sarawak, Sumatra and Kalimantan (less so in Sabah at this stage - as most of those areas were converted earlier), etc. We also need to improve the "references" for this section, much of it relies on newspaper article (which can be biased for/against oil palm) and should make use of more of the peer-reviewed literature. Sepilok2007 (talk) 11:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

It isn't Bog that are drained it is tropical Peat swamp forest, they are very different Kettle of fishSepilok2007 (talk) 11:27, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Some details from the Social and environmental impacts section are detailed with references in this article, but are not in the Environmental impact of palm oil article. I've detailed these below, so that they can be moved into that article, as appropriate:

Text to move to Environmental impact of palm oil

POME: In some states where oil palm is established, lax enforcement of environmental legislation leads to encroachment of plantations into protected areas, encroachment into riparian strips, open burning of plantation wastes, and release of palm mill pollutants such as palm oil mill effluent (POME) in the environment. Some of these states have recognised the need for increased environmental protection, resulting in more environment-friendly practices. Among those approaches is anaerobic treatment of POME, which can be a good source for biogas (methane) production and electricity generation. Anaerobic treatment of POME has been practiced in Malaysia and Indonesia. Like most wastewater sludge, anaerobic treatment of POME results in dominance of Methanosaeta concilii. It plays an important role in methane production from acetate, and the optimum condition for its growth should be considered to harvest biogas as renewable fuel. Fires: Drought and man-made clearances have led to massive uncontrolled forest fires over recent years, covering parts of Southeast Asia in haze and leading to an international crisis with Malaysia. These fires have been variously blamed on a government with little ability to enforce its own laws while impoverished small farmers and large plantation owners illegally burn and clear forests and peat lands to reap the developmental benefits of environmentally valuable land.

The new summarized section presents a better overview for this article on the issues related to the social and environmental impacts of oil palm cultivation. I hope someone will add it in place of the very long, duplicative current Social and environmental impacts section, and move any non-duplicated information into the more appropriate article. Thanks in advance. YellowOwl (talk) 21:08, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this section has become duplicated material and is in need of a good clean out. On the same point much of Environmental impact of palm oil is horrible and needs a complete re-write. Sepilok2007 (talk) 11:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

POME isn't a clear heading, "Palm Oil Mill Effluent (POME)" would be a better beginning.

Fires are not just a 2005–2006 problem, "variously blamed" should have more than one group blamed (here it is just the government with the inability). This citation seems appropriate: Celine Fernandez (June 20, 2012). "Southeast Asian Haze: Who's To Blame?". The Wall Street Journal. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:28, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Sepilok2007 and Sminthopsis84, I agree with you both about the Environmental impact of palm oil article and later I'll look at research and improvements there. For now, I'm working on making some changes and adding more references to the summarized version of the Social and environmental impacts section, with your feedback as a guide Sepilok2007. I'll return here once that is ready and let you both know. YellowOwl (talk) 21:11, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi YellowOwl, I've only just got back to Malaysia (Sabah) and will have a bit of search for peer-reviewed studies that could be added into this section. I don't get much time to work on Wikipedia articles (as meant to be writing paper), but have access to most of the tropical ecology/conservation biology literature. I think you are doing a good job on trying to get a balance in these articles Sepilok2007 (talk) 02:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

You're both doing a wonderful job. In the meantime I'll look in from time to time and prod at the articles a little. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 13:23, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, both of you and I think you are both doing an excellent job on the oil palm-related articles, too. I've made another try at the Social and environmental impacts summarized text, including some peer reviewed articles as references and adding a Malaysian government paper that sets out goals for sustainable palm oil development. In this second try, I've also made the other changes Sepilok2007 mentioned: moving allegedly, so that it refers only to the greenhouse gas emissions as that is more in contention, per Sepilok2007's comments and changing "bogs" to "peat swamp forests".

Social and environmental impacts replacement text - take 2

Main article: Environmental impact of palm oil The social and environmental impact of oil palm cultivation is a contentious topic. While oil palm has provided jobs and improved the standard of living in rural communities by increasing access to health care and education, increased production of oil palm has been criticized in recent years for negatively impacting the environment. Oil palm production in some regions has impacted endangered indigenous species and impacted natural habitats through draining peat swamp forests, burning forests and encroaching on natural habitats in areas where enforcement of environmental laws is lacking, and has allegedly led to increased greenhouse gas emissions. In recent years some organizations within the oil palm industry have responded to these allegations by developing more sustainable methods of oil palm production and communicating these efforts through organizations including the Indonesia-Malaysia Palm Oil Group and the Malaysian Palm Oil Council. These groups have organized conferences such as the International Palm Oil Sustainability Conference and the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil for the purpose of addressing environmental concerns. Goals for productivity and sustainability of palm oil production in Malaysia were included in the country's Third National Agricultural Policy which established agricultural and forestry development goals for 1998 to 2010.

Does this work better now as an alternative to the existing section? Also, I did not explain before, but I did not intend for "POME" and "Fires" to be headings in the "Text to move..." box. These were just descriptions for the sections of text I saw that appeared in this article but didn't appear in the Environmental impacts of palm oil article. The text appearing in the "Text to move..." box above is not new but the material from this article that I think can be moved into the Environmental impacts of palm oil article. YellowOwl (talk) 22:15, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, the social impact has been reduced, and I'm not sure how that should be handled. The section is called "Social and environmental impacts", but that doesn't mesh well with pointing for further information only to Environmental impact of palm oil. Perhaps either a new page could be created, Social impact of palm oil, or the existing page could be renamed and expanded to become Social and environmental impact of palm oil. Thoughts, anyone? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 18:09, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Sminthopsis84, you are correct that there's not currently anywhere to point readers for more information on social impacts. I think of the two ideas you have floated, the second seems the most appropriate: renaming the "Environmental impact of palm oil" article to "Social and environmental impacts of palm oil". As you've mentioned before, there are already a lot of articles on palm oil and it would become even more complicated if another was created. Also, to a certain extent, the social and environmental impacts are intertwined.

On your further review, does the text I've proposed work as a substitute for the current "Social and environmental impacts" section in this article? YellowOwl (talk) 21:10, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think you are right that renaming the page would be the best option. I'll request the move. Further work on this will have to wait until the weekend for me. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:15, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Partly done, more work needed. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:38, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Sminthopsis84, thanks for moving the POME information from Elaeis into the Social and environmental impact of palm oil article and making the updates to the first paragraph of the Social and environmental impacts section for this article. Your reply above says that more work is needed, can I ask if you have any questions about the replacement text that I prepared?

Also, what are your thoughts on moving the remaining material out of the Social and environmental impacts section that is duplicated in the Social and environmental impact of palm oil article? Here I mean the Carbon balance and Palm biomass as fuel sections. YellowOwl (talk) 14:10, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

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