Talk:Canadian Martyrs

Yes, it is the 'North American Martyrs'

A few thoughts:

(1) Perhaps, the most definitive: The Jesuits themselves do not use this nomenclature. In the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the Jesuits -- yes, there is such a thing -- these men are called the 'Canadian/North American Martyrs': Cambridge Encyclopedia of the Jesuits Thus, they recognize that the locations of the Jesuit missioners' martyrdom included not just (what we call today) 'Canada', but also (what we call) the 'United States of America'. This page ought to do the same.

(2) Goupil, Jogues, and Lalande died in (what is now) Auriesville, New York, U.S.A. Daniel, Lalement, Garnier, Chabanel, and Brebeuf died in various parts of (what is now) Ontario, Canada. The 'United States' branch of the martyrs, then, comes to over 1/3 of the total number. So, it does not seem to me that the group can be so simply presented as the 'Canadian' martyrs, full stop.

(3) The region in which those men were martyred was a French colonial outpost under the French Crown -- whatever number of Dutch, British, or assorted Norsemen might have also been exploring in the region. Samuel de Champlain even claims it as 'la Nouvelle Franse ["sic"]' in his 1612 map of the area, which can be seen here: Library and Archives Canada Blog. It is clear, then, that the region was not being called, 'Canada', at the time of the martyrs' martyrdom: certainly, not by the French explorers and colonists and -- possibly -- not even by the 'Canadian' martyrs themselves. So, calling Goupil et alii 'Canadian Martyrs' is clearly anachronistic, like calling them the 'United States Martyrs'. And, it is wrong: 'Canada' did not exist yet, neither as the name of the territory in which those men died nor as the name of the nation which would later assume the name of 'Canada'. The appellation, 'North America', however, albeit itself a little anachronistic, does not bear the full weight of anachronism as does the other two names.

(4) Also, important consider: In the various statements and decrees on the canonization of the Jesuit Martyrs', the Holy See was careful to acknowledge that the eight Jesuit martyrs belonged to both Canada and the United States. Cf. e. g.: Acta Apostolicae Sedis XXII (1930) In his decretal letter on the canonization (pg. 33 in A.A.S), Pope Pius XI specifically calls them 'the martyrs of Canada as well as of the rest of North America [Canadae ac reliquae Americae borealis Martyres]'. Furthermore, in response to a dubium (an 'official query'), the Congregation of Rites specified that five of the Jesuit Martyrs shed their blood for Christ 'in what is now the Dominion of Canada' and that three of them suffered martyrdom "in the area of North America, which actually comprises the State of New York' (pg. 285).

The most accurate and, therefore, most appropriate title for this Wikipedia page is: 'The Martyrs of North America' or 'The North American Martyrs'. Then, I would suggest dividing the page into two sections:

• one, devoted to the "Canadian" branch of the Jesuit Martyrs (viz., Daniel; Lalement; Garnier; Chabanel; and, de Brebeuf);
• the other, to the 'American' or 'United States' branch (viz., Goupil, Jogues, and Lalande).

Mwidunn (talk) 07:35, 25 August 2019 (UTC)mwidunn

Untitled

I am not entirley sure that these saints are the patron siants of Canada. I thought that this honour belonged to St. Joseph. Can this be checked?

Joseph, being the father of Jesus, is the patron saint of a lot of stuff, including the New World as a whole, and that would include Canada. The Martyrs, in particular Jean de Brébeuf, are the patron saints specific to Canada. --Arctic Gnome 07:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The Ordo (Liturgical Calendar) for Canada lists the Martyrs as "Secondary Patrons", while St. Joseph is listed as the Primary Patron. 207.253.57.29 (talk) 04:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[Wayne A. King] July 11 2008

Pope's Canonization speech

This is online? http://www.vatican.va/ ? Text (typo on Gabriel?) of this speech Source for most of the misspellings?

References

I've added references to the original reports of each one's death. It would be good to get some sort of recent analysis of the deaths of these men also. Freder1ck 03:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Freder1ck

Canadian Martyrs Vs. North American Martyrs?

Personally, and I acknowledge I'm from the US, I've always heard of these people as the North American Martyrs, maybe because of New York. Why is that a redirect to this page, which I believe, based on my experience, is the less-used name? John Carter 22:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Of the 8, 3 died in upstate NY. Calling it "Canadian martyrs" seems to reinforce this idea that they were only Canadian, or that Issac Jogues is an add-on here. This really should be under North American Martyrs, with the "also called" being Canadian martyrs, not the other way around. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.168.64.130 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 23May2007

Move completed. Dgf32 (talk) 21:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've only heard Canadian Martyrs, but then, I am Canadian. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll be occupied for the next few days, but I'll put in a request for comment when I have the opportunity. I've honestly never heard the phrase "North American Martyrs" outside of Wikipedia, but as I'm in Canada I'm unlikely to convince anyone. I note however that even without any kind of filtration of Wiki mirrors Google yields more than three times the number of hits for "Canadian Martyrs" than "North American Martyrs." ("Martyrs of North America" fares somewhat better, but still falls far short). The website of their shrine also uses "Canadian Martyrs." Given their longstanding identification with Canada I think the issue should be revisited. Carolynparrishfan (talk) 18:22, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

There are at least five that I can see.

1. Not all the martyrs died in Canada.
2. Canada had several names during that period and did not become a nation until 1867.
3. All the bolded names, which could be the "true name" redirect to this article.
4. North American is used; gets ghits and does not favor Canada or the US.
5. In the US, churches have been named the NAM. ----moreno oso (talk) 19:29, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Explanation

Canadian Martyrs is a translation from Martyrs canadiens, which literally means Martyrs of New France. Remember, northern New York and southern Ontario alternatively belonged to the French, the Huron, the Dutch and the British.

All of New France except Acadia and Louisiana was refered to as Canada. Also, the Quebecois formerly refered to themselves as Les Canadiens, just like the Montreal hockey team.

In 1930, when the martyrs were canonized, Canadien might have been understood as Canadien-français or French Canadian. Likewise, English Canadians formerly refered to themselves as the British, the Scots and the Irish.

69.157.237.87 (talk)

Name of feast

I have rewritten the name of the feast to match that which is used in the Sacramentary and in the Liturgy of the Hours. Caeruleancentaur (talk) 12:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Citation needed

This sentence seems to me (a Jesuit priest from upstate New York) to be very biased: "The Jesuits tended to exaggerate torture done to them by American Indian people. This may have been to secure continued support from the European mainland, at a time when their numbers were low."

There is no citation for this claim.

If it can be demonstrated that the Jesuits exaggerated, it must be done so from a contemporary source, not by the use of ESP.

The remark about the Jesuits' motivation to exaggerate, if they exaggerated, is also undocumented. It does not seem to be objective or appropriate for an encyclopedia.

Martin X. Moleski, SJ (talk) 17:49, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Title (again)

Whether this article should be called Canadian Martyrs or North American Martyrs, it definitely can't be moved manually (as Wikiddingme (talk · contribs) did), since that messes up the article history. Please discuss here if you think it should be moved (or moved back...actually I don't know why it was moved back to Canadian Martyrs in the first place). Adam Bishop (talk) 00:41, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Article Title

I had originally moved this article back to it's original title for the reasons listed below. The reason for my changing this article's title back to what it has been since the creation of the article wasn't to deny the fact that in Canada, these martyrs may very well be called "Canadian Martyrs." The reason is that internationally, these martyrs are known as "North American Martyrs." I would invite conversation on this subject before I revert back.

This article was recently moved from "North American Martyrs" to "Canadian Martyrs" without discussion. I have moved it back to its original title. It was moved by User:Bloom6132, who gave the following reason:

User:Bloom6132 moved page North American Martyrs to Canadian Martyrs over redirect: WP:COMMONNAME, evident as there are 28 million results on neutral Google UK for "Canadian Martyrs" as opposed to just 2 million for "North American Martyrs"

First, the claim that there are "there are 28 million results" for "Canadian Martyrs" on Google UK is false. There aren't even 28 million results for the word "martyr" so I don't know where that number comes from.

WP:COMMONNAME doesn't demand a neutral source for determining the title of an article, it demands a neutral title. There is nothing controversial about either "North American Martyrs" or for that matter "Canadian Martyrs." (I don't quite understand why User:Bloom6132 believes that google.com is not a neutral source on this matter but google.co.uk is. Google UK actually has more results for "North American Martyrs").

WP:COMMONNAME does demand that, "The most common name for a subject, as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources, is often used as a title because it is recognizable and natural."

Google UK reports 3,470,000 results for "North American Martyrs" and 2,610,000 results for "Canadian Martyrs." Google proper has similar results: NA/CAN, and for that reason I am moving the article back to North American Martyrs per WP:COMMONNAME. --Wikiddingme (talk) 13:33, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

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