Talk:Organized crime in France

Title

The guidelines about article titles advise to use English and to use a common name. To be consistent with other articles about organised crime in various countries, this article should probably be called Organized crime in France. Also, in French, "the French mob" or "The Underworld" is referred to as Le Milieu according to the article, not Milieu, just as in English, the definite article is usually used when referring to organized crime, as in "The Mob", while the word "mob" used on its own, without the definite article, merely refers to an unruly gathering of people. Also, the word "Milieu" has a different meaning in English and redirects to the article about the social environment. However, Organized crime in France is a redirect to this article, and was recently created with the comment that the term is unfamiliar to American readers. I think the term is generally unfamilar to English readers, and confusing too. Moving the article will overwrite the redirect history, so, before moving this article, I want to just check that Organized crime in France is the best name to use, and not something else. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 11:54, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@Cameron Dewe:, agreed; it should be moved to "Organized crime in France" as you suggest. The only possible alternatives, would be "Le Milieu", or even "The Milieu" (the latter would have to contend with WP:THE, and would very likely fail). But the main considerations are WP:COMMONNAME and recognizability from WP:AT, and the current title satisfies neither. Furthermore, based on my research, Le Milieu is not accurate, either, as it is not a synonym for "organized crime in France", but rather is a subset of it, used to designate only certain kinds of organized crime in France, but not others. For one thing, Category:Organized crime groups in France lists Milieu there, but also another dozen or more articles.

Part of the problem is the poor choice of parenthetical disambiguation, which is unnecessarily long, and tends to equate or conflate the terms in- and outside of the parentheses, whereas in reality they mean different things. If this article remains solely about Le milieu, then "Milieu (gang)" or "Milieu (crime)" would be sufficient.

The "Find sources" link sets below show that: 1) searching specifically for "France" and "Milieu" in the same web pages does not bring up a majority of articles about organized crime (for those results that are English), and 2) searching for organized crime in France doesn't always mention "Milieu" in English sources. The #3 and 4 searches are geared to use some search engines more popular in France (using French search keywords), and looking at #4, even French sources don't necessarily use "Milieu", for example the top result for Cairn in set 4 is Crime organisé et présence mafieuse en France which mentions all sorts of criminal gangs in the (bilingual) abstract, without ever mentioning Milieu. None of the other top Cairn results use the word Milieu in the search result abstracts.

1. Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
2. Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
3. France sources: Bing · Cairn · DuckDuckGo · E. Universalis · Gallica · Google · (books · scholar) · Persée · Qwant
4. France sources: Bing · Cairn · DuckDuckGo · E. Universalis · Gallica · Google · (books · scholar) · Persée · Qwant

Searching Google books for "France" organized crime milieu -wikipedia returns three top results that discuss (in English) the meaning of Milieu and related terms:

Excerpts from three sources defining and contrasting milieu and organised crime

G8 against Transnational Organized Crime (Scherrer, 2016), p. 36: "In France, for example, the understanding of organized crime that prevailed in media circles was for a long time derived from the use of the word milieu to denote criminal associations operating on its soil. It was the name given, for example, to the criminal structures operating in Southeastern France (such as the Marseille milieu or the Corsican milieu) which achieved notoriety in the 1960s as a result of the so-called "French Connection". Corruption and Organized Crime in Europe: Illegal partnerships (Gounev, 2012), p. 109 "One can conceptually differentiate between three aspects of organised crime: traditional indigenous structures, marginalized groups, and migratory/foreign-run criminal networks. * Indigenous structures: going back at least to the decade prior to World War II, the traditional terms 'grand banditry' (grand banditisme) or 'le milieu' were used to describe indigenous criminal networks in France. Organised Crime in Europe (Fijnaut, 2007), p. 358 (preceding text not visible in snippet) " ...organised bands' (infractions commises en bande organisée). Milieu (underworld) and grand banditisme (which roughly corresponds to organised crime) are, however, are the terms used by law enforcement officers, politicians, and media alike to describe the criminal activities and groupings of professional criminals. The milieu is a term that first appeared in French in 1921, and, according to the dictionary Le Petit Robert, is 'a social group from a majority of individuals living off the earnings of prostitutes and the proceeds of theft' (1990). Even though there is no existing official definition of organised crime in the French public debate, it is by and large identified with foreigners and is considered a phenomenon that takes place or originates from somewhere else. ... However, this ethnically biased view of organised crime is not correct, as this article supports the thesis that there is also a French organised crime."

Based on all this, I think several things need to happen, which will all depend on deciding what this article is about (which isn't clear, so I've added an {{Unfocused}} template, and pointed it here. Is this:

1. an article about organized crime in France? If yes, then rename it to Organized crime in France, write a new, broader lead, and restructure the body to make it clear that the Milieu is only one part of the bigger picture. Milieu would probably become the title of an H2 section (i.e., == Milieu ==), and there would other H2 sections for other aspects of organised crime in France; maybe the marginalized groups, and migratory/foreign groups mentioned in Gounev (2012) above.
2. an article just about Le milieu, and excluding other aspects of organized crime in France? If yes, then rewrite the WP:LEADSENTENCE to restrict the meaning, and pull everything out of the article that isn't just about Le milieu and move it into new, parent article "Organized crime in France" (taking over the redirect), and adding a brief H2 section called Le milieu to the new article in WP:Summary style, and linking back here with a {{Main article}} link at the top of the summary section.

If we choose #2, we would need to create a new article spun off from this one about "organized crime in France". If we choose #1, we could either keep it as a single article, with Le milieu as a major H2 section, or spin it off into a new article. I have a slight preference for #1 (make this one about organized crime in France, thus requiring a MOVE as you originally proposed). Mathglot (talk) 23:39, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

@Mathglot: Thanks for your most thoughtful comments on the title of this article. I agree with your option #1. Move to Organized crime in France. Given is has been almost a year since I suggested this move, I wonder if I simply move the article or if a formal move request is needed? - Cameron Dewe (talk) 02:17, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@Cameron Dewe: Yeah, I was wondering that, too. As I am sometimes on the other side of this question, that is, I sometimes undo page moves that have not been discussed, I think it's worth holding off a bit and see if anyone objects. I'll list it at WikiProject WP:FRANCE, and if there are no objections in a week or so, let's do it then. How does that sound? (P.S., if you are subscribed, I'll stop pinging.) Mathglot (talk) 02:35, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Good idea to expose this proposal to a wider audience. I don't mind the pings, and subscribe is a fairly new feature I have not made use of before. A week seems reasonable, given how long this has been sitting here without comment, so few more days can't hurt. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 03:07, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• Listed: at WT:FRANCE, WT:CRIME, WT:WikiProject Organized crime. Mathglot (talk) 02:56, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Noting for later: if the move is approved, then there will be some cleanup of in-links to be done. First one to fix is Template:Organized crime groups in Europe, because transclusions of it probably account for most of them. Then, Hornec gang, and then whatever is in this list. Mathglot (talk) 08:15, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@Cameron Dewe:, despite listing at several WikiProjects, there has been no further objection or commentary, so just wanted to check in with you before implementing the move. We are in agreement, that the article should be moved to "Organized crime in France", correct? If so, do you want to do the honors, or shall I? Also, if you have any thoughts on adding new redirects, we can do that at the same time, such as Le Milieu, Milieu (France), Milieu (organized crime). Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 02:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

I attempted to move the page to Organized crime in France but get a message that the page could not be moved because a page of that name already exists ... This move will need to use the technical requested moves process that asks an administrator to move the page, because I cannot. There is already a disambiguation page for Milieu which lists this article and the meaning of Le Milieu in French could also be considered somewhat ambiguous. Additionally, in light of WP:ENGLISH, I don't think creating any new redirects is needed at the moment, as it will just make things more complex. Apply WP:KISS. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 03:52, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

@Cameron Dewe:, I can do the move; an admin is not needed because I have the requisite page mover right. I'll leave off adding any redirects for now. Stand by... Mathglot (talk) 04:36, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

@Cameron Dewe:  Done. Mathglot (talk) 04:44, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 20:55, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

"Les beaux voyous"?

In the lead, people from "le Milieu", or grand-banditisme in general, are said to be called "les beaux voyous" - I'm French and absolutely never heard this expression of my life. It isn't mentioned in the French article either (fr:Milieu (crime organisé français)), and I don't think it's a widespread term at all, although I might be wrong. Chaotic Enby (talk) 15:26, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

I have never heard it either. Not French, but once lived in the 20e arrondissement. Possibly should be removed if nobody can source it Elinruby (talk) 02:59, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@Chaotic Enby and Elinruby: This term was added in revision 819967208 of 08:22, 12 January 2018, by indef-blocked sock Gallic Village (talk · contribs). In that same edit, they added a lot of other information in that edit, some of it sourced, much of it not sourced. One other thing that isn't sourced, is "The French Mob", and if you try the web, there are dozens of hits, but they are all Wikiwand, dbpedia, and have wording identical, or nearly so, to our article; obviously, all those sources copied from the article. So, I think the banned sock just decided it was a good term to add to the article, without any need for support. It's telling, that if you try searching "the French mob" in books, you get Charles Dickens' Tale of Two Cities, and Thomas Carlyle and other books about the French Revolution. So, I don't think "the French Mob" is used that much in English books with the meaning meant here. I've removed beaux voyous and French mob from the lead. Anyone should feel free to add them back, with sufficient sourcing. Also, other content from the sock's edit should be examined for proper sourcing. Mathglot (talk) 22:56, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Does not cover Carlingue

that article also needs to be gone over by someone who knows the topic very well. I believe the article creator may have been conflating the Carlingue and the Milice. Which is easily done, given the fragmentary nature of the milieu at the time. Elinruby (talk) 03:06, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, it needs a History section talking about all of those, and going back at least to the 19th century. Mathglot (talk) 22:57, 24 September 2023 (UTC)