Talk:Himno Nacional Mexicano

[2002-2003 posts]

What is this???

I believe its the Mexican anthem. Lir 19:37 Nov 1, 2002 (UTC)

Aha! Gracias. Now, since This Is The English Wikipedia (TM), could somebody knowledgeable put a little explanatory (English) text on the page? Thanks.

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Are these lyrics in the public domain? -- Zoe

If, as the article states, it was first published in 1854, I'd be very suprised if it's still under copyright. --Brion 23:50 Nov 1, 2002 (UTC)

If they're part of the national patrimony of the Republic of Mexico, they might be privately held. I'm not saying they are, I'm just asking questions. -- Zoe

AFAIK, National Anthems are NOT copyrighted because people WANT them spread around, lyrics and all. What's the point of a national anthem if it can't be reproduced?

What's needed now is a rough English translation of the words so that people know what they're looking at.

I have left a question at Talk:Marcha Real. I STR that the last version of the Spanish anthem is under copyright :P -- Error 00:45 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)

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I have heard that there are Mexicans named Masiosare because of the 9th verse. -- Error

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The lirics and music are public domain, but Universal pictures had once a copyright on it. They registered all the music they have used, and they use it on one of ther movies. Of course their copyright was not valid, but generated much speculation here in Mexico.

When the hymn was composed, the poetry of Bocanegra was a bit ... i think in english you use the expresion, full of big words.

Today all children learn it, but ussually they don,t undertand much of it... Especially the phrase "Mas si osare un extraño enemigo". Most children sing it like they were saying "Masiosare, a strange enemy". Eventally they find someone to call "strange enemy", or "Masiosare". As adults we like to keep the joke. :)

Nanahuatzin

On translating Patria

Since "Patria" is a female noun, an appropiate translation would be Motherland instead of Fatherland. Non being a native english speaker I only put a note on the article; could someone shed light on this? Asereje 3 July 2005 03:08 (UTC)

Patria comes from Latin "pater", which is father, so therefore the transaltion should be Fatherland. However, there's a phrase "madre patria" which would make it Motherland, and Google translates it as "mother country". So either translation I think is valid. Burleigh 18:12, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Patria in Spanish is female and comes from "pater" a male Latin noun. In Mexico we have statues of Mother country. I guess because here the relationship between mothers and sons/daughters is stronger. The anthem talks about defending our beloved mother. --eipipuz 19:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

That is completely false. "Patria" comes from the Greek word "πατριά", present in Latin as a loan word, and it implies the figure of the father, not the mother. Also, regardless of artists' renditions in other media, there is no indication as to the maternal nature of the "Nation" in the Himno itself.

As per my previous edits, I continue to strongly support a rendition of "Patria" as "Country". It might not be a word-for-word dictionary translation, but the English construction "Father|Mother|Home-land" carries connotations that "Patria" does not. On the other hand, "Patria" invokes the idealized notion of 19th century nationhood that has little to do with the physical "-land" itself. Kwarizmi (talk) 22:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Please see the article [Motherland]. While there is no direct indication of a maternal nature in the Anthem, There is a cultural background in spanish speaking countries of the "patria" as a maternal figure, which is different from the territorial notion of country. Stretching a bit, it has the undertones of the pagan gods fo the roman state. Patria is a latin concept, which has not direct equivalent in english. Nanahuatzin (talk) 15:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Obviously "patria" has no direct equivalent in English, or there would be no debate on this matter. What I am asking for is a deeper evaluation of "motherland" as a translation of "patria", beyond the simple fact that both are feminine nouns. As a native of Mexico, I am well-aware of the cultural connotations of "Patria" as a feminine figure and a vaguely maternal one. But these connotations are in no way overt enough to warrant using the English word "Motherland", which makes explicit verbal references to two things, which by themselves, the Patria is most certainly not: a mother or a land.Kwarizmi (talk) 16:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Note

Mexican National Anthem or National Anthem of Mexico? --Scalif 08:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Name

Shouldn't this be at National Anthem of Mexico or Mexican National Anthem or something like that? I doubt many users search for it under this name... Titoxd^{(?!? - help us)} 01:19, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

National Anthems change all of the time, but I am going to make all redirects as much as possible. Zach ^{(Smack Back) Fair use policy} 01:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

According to http://david.national-anthems.net/mx.htm, there has been some attempts to have other songs become national anthems, so having this article at the generic "National Anthem of Mexico" title will probably not be good. The United States anthem page is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner, it's title, and Canada's anthem page is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Canada. Other nations, such as New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and Australia, to name a few, have their national anthem articles at their song titles (some are offcial, some are not), and when I wrote about the Belarusian anthem, I wrote it at the title of it's song (unofficial) at My Belarusy. Yes, I should have asked before I moved, but I still believe that this article should be at Mexicanos, al grito de guerra and the other pages should redirect to it. Zach ^{(Smack Back) Fair use policy} 05:22, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

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Translation of the lyrics

I removed the note that read:

In the chorus, "centros la tierra" does not refer to the Earth's core, but to various important points around the globe at the time (e.g. cities, military bases, etc.). Also, Patria is a female noun in Spanish; in English it is translated as "Fatherland" (here it is translated as Motherland, because in Mexico the custom is to say "Madre Patria").

First of all, the lyrics do refer to the core of the earth, which would, poetically and presumably, tremble at the roar of the cannon. Secondly, it doesn't matter that in Spanish we would say "Madre Patria" when we are translating it to English. In English the common term is Fatherland, and thus the one that should be used in the translation. --Agurza 13:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Motherland is also used too on some occasions, but if you think that your translation is right, go ahead and use it, I will not revert. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire) Fair use policy} 14:49, 31 January 2006 (UTC) (es-0.5)

I would vote for motherland. Both terms are in the dictionary (and the OED has older and more abundant examples for motherland). Either could be used in principle, but I think it is more appropriate to keep the gender used in the original. This can help the reader learn something about the culture! Also, people on the web seem to use motherland more often than fatherland: http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=fatherland&word2=motherland (this is in general, not in the context of the Mexican anthem) Itub 16:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

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I also modified the translation of the anthem, I think is better this way. I hope you all find it appropriate. --Agurza 15:47, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The new translation for "Ciña ¡oh Patria! tus sienes de oliva/de la paz el arcángel divino" is wrong. In the original, the verb ceñir is conjugated in the third person, which means that the divine archangel is the subject who is wreathing the fatherland/motherland. Your translation makes it seem like the fatherland is "taking" the olive and wreathing itself... Itub 16:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

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I think you are absolutely right on your comment about the divine archangel and its wreath wreathing of olive leaves of peace... rather than its peaceful demeanor... I changed it but I'm not entirely satisfied and will try to come up with a better phrasing... eventually.

On the other hand, re: Motherland or Fatherland, I had (and have) the impression that 'fatherland' is the most common term in English, but have found no definitive argument for it, so if you guys want to change it back, it's OK by me; although the googlefight or the "national culture" argument don't convince me personally... yet again, having no argument on my part I gladly defer to the rest of the community.

--Agurza 22:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

"The copyright situation has not yet been resolved"?

What does this mean, exactly? Whether or not the Germans or the Americans ever held a copyright for this anthem, it should be clear that by now there can be no copyright, because it would have expired already. At least until the U.S. congress decides to extend the copyright terms to life of author + 500 years, with retroactive effect. ;-) Itub 16:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Itub, while it mostly is a urban legend now, I found [1]. This is the BMI Repertoire, the same one cited in the stories I have with the links. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire) Fair use policy} 21:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I found an interesting article on this topic in a Mexican newspaper (in Spanish): [2], [3]. Itub 22:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Translation problems

A few translation problems I see:

• "Y retiemble en sus centros la tierra" --> "And let the earth centers tremble"
  • "Earth centers" in English doesn't work; better would be "And let the center of the earth tremble".
    • Or, more poetically, "And let the depths of the earth tremble". —Spangineer^[es] (háblame) 23:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
      • While in primary school we were teached (circa 1965) that this sentences referes to the combat centers, not the literal center of the earth, but so far i have not found a satisfatory answers of why it says "Centros", except that it rhymes better... Nanahuatzin 20:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Indeed. It's likely that "centros" refers to important places of some sort, think of the capitals of foreign countries, for instance. After all an anthem is a symbol of nationhood. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 17:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
• "al sonoro rugir de el cañón!" --> "To the roar of the cannon!"
  • "Al" often means "To the", but it appears to mean "at the" in this context, so a better translation would be "At the roar of the cannon!"
• "Ciña" --> "Wreathed" and "oliva" --> "olive leaves"
  • Both of these are shaky; "Girded" and "Olives" would be more accurate.
• "Patrio" --> "homeland"
  • This is an adjective, not a noun; should read "native flags" or perhaps better, "native banners"
• "Con las voces" --> "The cries"
  • "With" is clearly missing here—whole sentence should read "And the deafening echoes resound / With the cries of Union! Liberty!"
• "Y tus templos, palacios y torres / Se derrumben con hórrido estruendo" --> "And your temples, palaces, and towers / Fall with terrible thunder"
  • Derrumbar is an -ar verb, so the subjunctive is being used here. Therefore, "let" or "may" is missing in this phrase. Also, "collapse" would be a better translation of derrumbar. So, "And may your temples, palaces, and towers / Collapse with terrible thunder". The following phrase could then be modified to, "With their ruins existing to say"
• "en tus aras" --> "in your honor"
  • I believe this would be better expressed with "for your sake".
    • "Aras" means "altars", but i agree is better "for your sake" Nanahuatzin 20:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
• Are we sure that "de gloria" and "de honor" do not modify "ellos"?
• In general, I don't like the translation of Patria to Fatherland. Homeland is a much more common term (google returns 10 times the number of results), and at least Motherland would carry the gender. In any case, please remove the explanatory note about Patria-->Motherland; it'd be better to handle this by putting a link within the anthem that points to an explanation in the notes section. —Spangineer^[es] (háblame) 22:16, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the suggested changes. But I feel pretty sure that "de honor" refers to "recuerdo", not to "ellos". Same with "de gloria" That is, "un recuerdo para ellos de honor" = "un recuerdo de honor para ellos". Itub 22:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you're right, since that would be consistent with the other two lines, but I wanted to make sure that I was reading it properly. —Spangineer^[es] (háblame) 23:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

HImno Nacional Mexicano

The tittle of the Himno Nacional Mexicano is Himno Nacional Mexicano, not Mexicanos al grito de guerra. When Francisco Gónzalez Bocanegra wrote this lyrics, called his composition "Volemos al combate, a la venganza, Y el que niegue su pecho a la esperanza, Hunda en el polvo la cobarde frente". The tittle of music is Dios y Libertad. Sorry, I don't speak english. [4] Sorry, I don't speak english.

It's ok. Yes, I do know that this is not the official title of the anthem, and I made cleae that the legal title is Himno Nacional Mexicano, but this is the "unofficial and informal." When I wrote national anthem articles, they are always at their informal titles, and I always cite My Belarusy as an example. I am thinking about putting this up for requested moves, if yall are ok with that. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 02:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

On the second note; I already have Dios y Libertad mentioned, but not the title for the words. Thank you. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 02:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Thruth name

I am a Mexican from Mexico DF, and I know a lot of my anthem, both are wrong, and I am going to explain

• First the thruly name of the natonal Anthem Of the United states of Mexico is Himno Nacional Mexicano and I agree to change the name, the government of Mexico has deecreted so many years that is Himno Nacional Mexicano
• Second: Y retiemble en sus centros la Tierra, it referes to caves not the core, centros is an ancient word for caves
  • Ok, i'll move it now. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 02:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • BTW, the English lyrics that were chosen for the anthem was from http://www.elbalero.gob.mx/kids/government/html/simbolop/himno.html, which is a website connected to the President of Mexico, officially. While the translation maybe not be accurate, this is probably an "official" translations, unless we want to ask the Government again for a translation. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 02:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

As a native speaker of Spanish I'd like to see the dictionary that states that centro is an "ancient word for cave". -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 17:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

question about a fact in the article

The article on Balbina Steffenone and this link indicate that Balbina Steffenone sang the innaugural performance, but the current version of this article says otherwise (old versions apparently didn't). Since this is way outside my area of expertise I thought I'd point this out here rather than make a clueless change to the article. Thanks. --W.marsh 17:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The sources that I used to state who performed the anthem for the first time was coming from the Mexican Government itself; the SRE and the Mexican Embassy in the Former Yugoslavia. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Salute When Singing the Anthem?

I remember when I saw the World Cup games in June 2006, the Mexican players did this "salute" when they were singing the anthem. The put their hands, with the back of the hand facing upward, on the left side of the chest (I might have the sides mixed up). Is there a name for this? Arbiteroftruth 06:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Right hand, left side of chest. It's the "civil salute", IIRC. Titoxd^(?!?) 06:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The full name is "El Saludo Civil de la Bandera Nacional" ("The Civil Salute to the National Flag"). You can read about it at Flag_of_Mexico#Flag_protocol. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 10:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Problem with the translation of one verse

In Spanish, the verse:

"Y retiemble en sus centros la tierra" (literally "And may tremble at its centers the Earth")

The word "centros" (centers) doesn't refer to the center of the Earth. As you may notice, the word is in plural, not in singular. The earth only have one center (core).

The verse refers to the various important centers of the world, meaning military centers, cities, monuments, etc. I read this in a book called "Capítulos Olvidados de la Historia de México" (Forgotten Chapters of the History of Mexico) published by the Reader's Digest, where a clear description of the antique spanish language of the anthem is provided. However, I will look for an online source in order to clarify this.

I also noticed that several other persons pointed at this translation problem in the discussions above. AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 20:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

• I do not agree. Making an abstract noun out of a singular noun by using the plural form is a very common figure of speech in Spanish. Examples: "los cielos" (there is only one sky), "los infiernos" (there is only one hell), "las arcas del país" (to refer to a nation's treasury), etc. By using the plural, Bocanegra refers not to *the* geometric, measurable exact center of the planet Earth, but to the depths, the bowels, the innards of the *land* (tierra, not Tierra!). This is a metaphor much more appropriate to the abstract nature of the poem than refering to the important landmarks of a place (which Bocanegra later enumerates as templos, palacios y torres). Kwarizmi 21:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

That's a very good point. However, this is not the first time I hear about "centros" refering to the world's important places. It is just a matter of finding sources to clarify this matter, because as I said, I read about this. AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 22:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The rest of the poem?

Saw this was on the front page. Did not see, at least conspicuously, a link anywhere to the full ten verses that its author wrote, much less to an Englished version of the full poem. This arouses curiosity as to what the rest of the story was about. - Smerdis of Tlön 05:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Go to the bottom of the page to see the Wikisource link. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Vandalized

Someone vandalized this page. I think there is a formal way to revert to a prior version but I couldn't quickly figure it out. I just copied and pasted from the last good version. Sorry if I didn't follow the right protocol.

See Help:Reverting. Oysterguitarist 20:01, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

--Caja do Queso 06:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC) Thanks dude. I bookmarked it.

Mexicanos, al grito de guerra

Um, the article translates this as "Mexicans at the cry of war", but I think it's "Mexicans TO the cry of war". Any thoughts? - Eric (talk) 17:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep, as far as I know, it should be "Mexicans to the cry of war". Any other thoughts? - E.M. talk ● contribs 06:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm Mexican and I've always found it ambiguous. It depends on whether you read the first line together with the second one, or separately. That is, something like "Mexicans! When the cry of war comes, you should get ready your steel and your horses" versus "Mexicans! Come to the cry of war! Get ready your steel and your horses!". --Itub (talk) 11:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I think Spanish speakers will find the meaning more obvious if you rearrange Bocanegra's poetry into a more modern-usage syntax order: "Mexicanos, aprestad el acero y el bridón al grito de guerra." Likewise, the first stanza could be read: "Oh Patria! El arcángel divino de la paz ciña tus cienes de oliva." Kwarizmi (talk) 14:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Colombians signing the National Anthem of Mexico in Japan (????)

This part:

"In a separate incident in Japan, police officers asked four men to sing the Mexican anthem after they were arrested in Tokyo on charges of breaking and entering. However, when the men could not sing the anthem, it was discovered that they were Colombian nationals holding forged Mexican passports. They were later charged with more counts on theft of merchandise and money"

I read also the [news and I have look throughout the net to find confirmation. I dont find any other support to this info.

The question is: could a Japanese police ask a Colombian to sing the National Anthem of Mexico? I did not know that the National Anthem of Mexico was so popular in Japan. Maybe the Japanese are learning a lot Mexican Spanish, no? or maybe the Mexican government has invested a lot in translate the National Anthem in Japanese and make it learn over there, no? or maybe that is only a ridiculous spam. --Albeiror24 (talk) 05:02, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe it has to do with the Japanese government thinking (correctly) that people who say that they are Mexican will know the Mexican national anthem. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 07:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The real question is: how is this trivial factoid relevant to an encyclopedia article about the national anthem of Mexico? --Itub (talk) 11:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Because it shows that the anthem is being used as one way to prove citizenship? The Mexican government does this as well. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 20:21, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

correct way to listen the anthem

In the photograph showing mexicans listening the national anthem at a football game, they are in the position of flag salute and this is incorrect, the Law is clear that the national anthem have to be listen in stand up position. The flag salute position only uses when the flag is arising or lowering. That is a common error that began probably 15 years ago in some sports events maybe by the influence of the U.S. tradition of make the flag salute during the listen of their own anthem. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jormymex (talk • contribs) 17:53, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

English translation of name?

Wouldn't "Himno Nacional Mexicano" be translated into "Mexican National Anthem" in English? Shouldn't "National Anthem of Mexico" be translated as "Himno Nacional de Mexico", as "Estados Unidos Mexicanos" is translated into "United Mexican States"? Illegitimate Barrister (talk) 03:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

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On translating patria (again)

(See also the previous discussion from 7 years ago, #On translating patria)

I've reverted an edit which changed the translation of Spanish patria from "fatherland" to "motherland", and I'd like to get consensus for the proper translation here.

The source (which is dead, but archived here) gives the translation as simply "country", but I think that is not exactly accurate nor does it reflect the patriotic theme of the song. Spanish for country is país - simply referring to a country, but patria refers more specifically to the country of one's birth, which in English is fatherland. On the other hand, motherland is more commonly used to refer to the parent nation of an imperial colony, which I think is far away from the Spanish usage here. Literally speaking, using "motherland" would make this an ode to Spain, and I doubt that's the intent.

The IP editor pointed out that official celebrations use "madre patria" which I think is closer to "mother country" (not, for example, "mother fatherland") but I don't think that helps shed light on the translation. Patria is a feminine noun in the gendered languages, so rendering it as "padre patria" would simply be nonsense. But that also doesn't help with a thematic translation.

As a compromise, I suggest that the translation of patria be changed either to "homeland" (which is a synonym of fatherland but does not suggest a gender) or to "mother country" (which is more of a brick-to-the-face direct translation, but may more accurately reflect the theme of the song). Thoughts? Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:39, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Himno Nacional Mexicano/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I rated it the way it is because its already a Feature Article and it of Top importance because the anthem is well known.Bewareofdog (talk) 04:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 04:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 17:56, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Retiemble translation

The current translation translates this in the indicative "And the Earth trembles to it's core", but it is subjunctive. Would "may the Earth tremble..." or "let the Earth tremble..." or some more poetic translation more appropriately express the sense that this is a wished for outcome after Mexicans rise up than a co-occurring event? Toddobryan (talk) 14:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)