Talk:Lester B. Pearson/Archive 1

Nobel Link

The bottom of the existing page has a link to previous/successor PMs etc. Why not add a similar link re: Nobel Prize winners? [2004.12.29 - JPiper]

Now I know relatively little about the politics of Canada, but surely being leader of the Liberal party for 12 years and prime minister for 5 isn't enough for the Nobel Committee. Any hints for the casual reader about Mr. Pearson's merits? --MichaelTinkler

Moved from main page: "While at the University of Toronto Pearson lived in Gate House in Burwash hall in what is now room 3203." Vicki Rosenzweig

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I'm not overmuch into baseball, but I would assume that the Pearson Cup is no longer being awarded with the departure of the Expos. Dhodges 15:24, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Rug Pissing

I would suggest that the story that Johnson yelled "you pissed on my rug" at Pearson should not be included. The encyclopedia should include facts, not interesting stories. To the best of my knowledge, this story emerged from a journalist (Lawrence Martin) many years after the event. No credible witness (i.e., a person who witnessed the event) has recounted this version of events. Charles Ritchie, who was there, tells the story of Pearson being berated, but does not use the language "you pissed on my rug." Let's stick to the established facts, boring though they might be. HistoryBA 00:38, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• The story has been around for many decades & it is and will always remain part of Canadian culture & it should be addressed -- even if article says according to some reports --- allegedly -- reputedly. It's unlikely anyone there would go on the record officially - so reputedly is fairly accurate. It's unlikely that it was made up from whole cloth AND never refuted by anyone. Lots of "facts" are unverifiable. "Reputedly", Johnson was that kind of guy.
• Another source of piss on rug - http://216.239.63.104/search?q=cache:FQHtg_E_lH8J:www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_zolf/20030403.html+%22charles+ritchie%22+pearson+johnson&hl=en&start=8
• more refined accounts
  • http://www.irpp.org/po/archive/sep03/donaghy.pdf
  • http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xii/2288.htm
    • On April 2, 1965, Prime Minister Pearson, in an address at Temple University in Philadelphia, suggested changes in U.S. policy in the Vietnam conflict. President Johnson invited Pearson to meet with him the following day at Camp David, Maryland. According to the President's Daily Diary, the meeting was held between 12:30 and 2:45 p.m. (Johnson Library) No U.S. record of the discussions between the two men was found. At an April 22 press conference in Ottawa, Pearson confirmed reports that the meeting with the President centered on the question of Vietnam and had been acrimonious but insisted that they had parted on good terms. Pearson's account of the meeting is in Mike: Memoirs of the Right Honorable Lester B. Pearson, Volume 3, pages 138-142. Ambassador Charles Ritchie, who was also present at Camp David, commented on the meeting in Storm Signals, pages 80-83.
• Other versions could be included & let reader decide. We could say acrimonious, we could say "as a result of his comments, LBJ summoned him to a meeting..." (if meeting not already planned)
• To not mention "piss on rug" part at all is to sanitize the article & make it less relevant.--JimWae 01:38, 2005 Feb 1 (UTC)

Perhaps some personal narrative history would clarify my point of view. I first noticed the "pissed" story on this page some time ago. I added a qualifier ("reportedly," if I'm not mistaken) because I did not think the story was properly established. Only two people were within hearing range of the event -- Pearson and Johnson -- and neither reported that Johnson said "you pissed on my rug." Charles Ritchie reported that he witnessed the event from a distance. Johnson berated Pearson, but Ritchie did not report any specific words. It was only years after the event that a journalist (Lawrence Martin) claimed that Johnson said, "you pissed on my rug." No one has ever provided collaboration for this.

More recently, I read a review of Greg Donaghy's book written by an expert in the field. The expert praised Donaghy for not having repeated the "pissed" story as fact. This made me go back to see exactly how the story was reported in Wikipedia. I was surprised to discover that my qualifier had been removed and the story was now reported as fact. This is what motivated me to remove it: (a) the doubt cast upon the story by experts in the field (Donaghy and the book reviewer), and (b) the way the story was presented as an established fact.

In response to JimWae's specific points:

(1) I agree that not all facts can be verified. My point, however, is that unverified facts should not be in an encyclopedia.

(2) The fact that a story is repeated many times does not make it true.

(3) Pearson's memoirs and Ritchie's memoirs support my position.

(4) Donaghy supports my position (he reports that Johnson used that sort of language, but does not say that he used it in this specific context).

(5) Yes, let's include it as part of Canadian folklore, and let's make it clear that we are including it as folklore.

HistoryBA 00:36, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Anyone know why the entire word "pissed" now gets erased in article (& not last week)? I have had to type "p*ss*d"--JimWae 05:44, 2005 Feb 12 (UTC)

Fixed the "Pissed" thing, just made it a link.Habsfannova 01:53, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

War criminal

Noam Chomsky is apparently fond of describing Pearson as a "war criminal", and claims to have a long rap sheet against Pearson. See, for instance, http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=11&ItemID=5694 . (I feel dirty for citing znet.) I sure would like to know what his specific claims are. Somegeek 00:06, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)

Maybe it has to do with Ottawa supplying Agent Orange to the Americans? --sg

I've learned the "war criminal airport" comment was made on CBC Radio, on a show called Morningside, with interviewer Peter Gzowski. Don't know the date. I'm not sure, but it doesn't seem as though he really articulated his case against Pearson at the time -- boy it would be fun to hear that interview -- and I don't know if he ever has since. He's referred to the incident a lot tho, all I can ever find are these references after the fact. Bahh. Somegeek 03:54, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)

Pearson as World War II courier

Yes, according to his Nobel biography, "From 1935 to 1941 he served in the office of the High Commissioner for Canada in London; in May, 1941, he was appointed assistant undersecretary of state for External Affairs at Ottawa; in June, 1942, named minister-counselor at the Canadian Legation in Washington; in July, 1944, promoted to the rank of minister plenipotentiary and in January, 1945, to the rank of ambassador." This does not mean he could not also be a courier. According to William Stevenson, "A future prime minister of Canada and secretary-general of the United Nations, Lester B. Pearson, was a humble diplomat when [William] Stephenson asked him to become 'a King's messenger,' conveying secret documents. Orders had to be conveyed between London, [British Security Coordination] in New York, and Camp X [in Canada]. Pearson had spent the hard winter of 1940 in London. Then he was asked to carry top-secret material across the Atlantic." In fact, I believe Pearson writes at length on the subject in his own autobiography, Mike. I really should have mentioned all this earlier. - Calmypal (T) 17:48, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

As I explained the second time I removed your edit, my objection was the text said that Pearson was a courier, without putting this in context. Pearson was not a courier. He was a diplomat. Your sources show that he transported some important documents one time. This makes him a diplomat that transported some documents, not a courier. I once helped my brother pick up some supplies for his business, but this didn't make me a delivery boy. HistoryBA 03:05, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thought America insenuated he was communist

I saw a documentary on TVO and they said CIA had a file of 200+ pages on him. They also publicly insisted that he was a communist for some reason. And his death - I could be wrong though - was self induced (Suicide) by jumping from some building. Don't nail me on that though, but please check it out.

You've mixed up Lester Pearson and Herbert Norman. HistoryBA 00:32, 17 July 2005 (UTC)