Talk:The Holocaust in Libya

History was deleted when page was moved

I redirected the page to here, and now the previous page of The Holocaust in Italian Libya: Revision history doesn't exist anymore. Does anyone know how to bring it back or move the article there without changing its current proper name (just like others in this template), "The Holocaust in Libya"? Thanks, - Shalom11111 (talk) 19:52, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Apparently you redirect was disruptive (it seems you tried to copy-paste the content instead of making a physical move, which would move the history as well). Now it is fixed, but is located at The Holocaust in Italian Libya. If you wish to move it to The Holocaust in Libya, it is not possible (the back-path had been blocked by your last edits). In any case the events took place in Italian Libya and not the State of Libya, so i suggest to keep it this way.Greyshark09 (talk) 20:25, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Totally biased and wrong. The Italians did not carry out mass killings of Jews in Libya, that's false! In fact the worst oppression was carried out by German soldiers and SS officers. I've changed the article title to "The Jews of Libya during the Holocaust". I think that this both avoids giving the false impression that the Italian authorities were carrying out a genocidal policy against Jews in Libya, and wrongly implying that the State of Libya was itself carrying out such a policy. Jacob D (talk) 22:16, 17 February 2017 (UTC)Jacob D

Important general notes about the article

I've just finished doing a thorough research about this well written article. Apparently, the majority of its content was translated from the Hebrew version of this article, which had existed before this one was created. So first off, even though I didn't originally create it, I'm giving credit to the Hebrew article as Wikipedia requires. Now, everything written in the Hebrew version is accurate, verifiable and well sourced, but often uses actual books in Hebrew as references. Therefore, in case anyone wonders, some of the detailed information provided in this article which isn't specifically sourced was directly taken from the Hebrew one, so no worries, nothing is made up. Any further questions are welcomed.. Shalom11111 (talk) 16:44, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 14 January 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved as originally proposed (closed by non-admin page mover) BegbertBiggs (talk) 23:35, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

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Jews of Libya during the Holocaust → The Holocaust in Libya – We currently use two formats for article titles in Category:The Holocaust by country. The first is "The Holocaust in Foo" which is used in relation to directly affected countries; the second is "Foo and the Holocaust" for countries involved only indirectly. The suggested title brings the article into line with the former and is also clearer. It should be noted that there is also scholarly usage of this formula. —Brigade Piron (talk) 22:13, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

• Move to The Holocaust in Italian Libya. "Italian Libya" is more accurate than "Libya". This precision also has precedent given the articles The Holocaust in the Independent State of Croatia and The Holocaust in German-occupied Serbia.VR _talk 04:24, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support original move, which is more consistent with other articles eg. the Holocaust in Slovakia, the Holocaust in Byelorussia, the Holocaust in Poland etc. given that independent nations of Byelorussia, Poland, etc. did not exist at the time and the Slovak State had different borders than Slovakia does today. (t · c) buidhe 05:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support Per buidhe.--Watchlonly (talk) 12:46, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support: conformance with precedent. Jared.h.wood (talk) 23:48, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support original proposal. Srnec (talk) 01:12, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support Rreagan007 (talk) 20:07, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support To match other articles on Holocaust topics. Dimadick (talk) 22:30, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Jewish Holocaust survivors return to Libya from Concentration Camp Bergen-Belsen 1945.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:50, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Jewish Holocaust survivors return to Libya from Concentration Camp Bergen-Belsen 1945.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:26, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Naming

I have a problem with this article’s title. The Holocaust is, as I understand it, defined as the genocide of European Jews in WWII. The Jews of Libya were not European, and I haven’t seen sources that discuss their concentration as part of the Holocaust per se. I see the article was named this way citing various similar titles, but those articles all referred to European countries. Pinging those who participated in that discussion: @Brigade Piron @Vice regent @Dimadick @Rreagan007 ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:26, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

@Srnec @Jared.h.wood @Buidhe ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:27, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this is a problem, a seeming contradiction between our article at The Holocaust and this one. See also the new addition to the lead at Jews outside Europe under Axis occupation. —Srnec (talk) 23:36, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that the article title contradicts NPOV. At best there is debate about whether Libyan Jews were intended to be included in the Holocaust. (t · c) buidhe 23:49, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not super well-researched on the constitution of the Holocaust, but I'm sure some Wikipedians are. I've notified WikiProject Jewish History, but if anyone knows any editors who could help us out here, please ping them or alert them on their Talk. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 03:48, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I would suggest as a compromise that we follow the same approach as for neutral and not-so-neutral countries (e.g. Spain) and chose Libya and the Holocaust. This ensures that the word "Holocaust" is in the title, which I think is appropriate and supported by modern scholarship, without taking a definite position on whether the Holocaust took place in Libya. I was actually proposing to adopt this approach in a draft article I am writing on French North Africa for which similar concerns apply.

On the need for the word "Holocaust" in the title, I think it is worth citing Dan Stone who writes, for example, that, "historians are only now describing the fact that the Holocaust exceeded the boundaries of Europe. North Africa has been almost entirely omitted from most histories of the Holocaust, yet in the Vichy-controlled Maghreb and in areas occupied by the Germans and Italians, the persecution of the Jews forms part of the wider Holocaust story." (The Holocaust: An Unfinished History, 2023).—Brigade Piron (talk) 09:35, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Are you aware that there were a number of concentration and labor camps for Jews in Libya during WWII? As I’ve researched them, I’ve often found them in volumes about the Holocaust. Spain had no such camps, I believe. Maybe the better conversation would be one at Holocaust to discuss refactoring the lead to include North Africa, as some more recent scholarship has. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 03:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

It sounds crass but plenty of countries had concentration and labour camps in the 1940s in which Jews were either specifically detained or overrepresented - Vichy camps in French North Africa would be another example. Any history of the Holocaust needs to integrate them, but I think it is wrong to say that there is a scholarly consensus that they were necessarily part of the coordinated plan for the extermination of Jewry playing out at the same time in Europe. It is precisely this ambiguity which means that we need to be careful about the title. —Brigade Piron (talk) 22:04, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• Can I suggest this page at least be retitled to "The Holocaust in Italian Libya"? The events of this article occurred in Italian Libya. It would then go through several iterations (Kingdom of Libya, Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya etc) before becoming the post-2011 state that the page Libya covers.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 13:47, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

  I support this title. I've been doing research and it seems recent scholarship generally considers the plight of North African Jewry to also be the Holocaust. I'll take this to Talk:Holocaust. In fact I think The Holocaust in Libya is the appropriate title, per BP's objection to "Italian" and my own reading of the sources describing the internments and deportations in Libya as being part of the Holocaust (changed July 15) ꧁Zanahary꧂ 05:39, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The addition of "Italian" doesn't really affect the merits of the title. Why it is important to disambiguate "Italian Libya" from its successor states anyway? It is not like there were several Holocausts in Libya affecting different regimes.—Brigade Piron (talk) 21:57, 1 July 2024 (UTC)