Talk:Hedwig Jagiellon, Electress of Brandenburg

Name

The article was moved from Jadwiga Jagiellon to Hedwig Jagiellon with a justification that "She was a German duchess and this is English-language Wikipedia. Hedwig is used in German and English". Please remember that this is indeed an English language Wikipedia, not German. A quick search shows that Hedwig Jagiellon is used in three publications - 1 English, 2 German. Jadwiga Jagiellon is used in 6 books, 4 English, 1 Polish, 1 Latin. Hence the Jadwiga version seems more popular; I am moving the article back. If you want to rename it again, please provide reliable sources indicating a better name here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:23, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

The quick search doesn't prove that "Jadwiga Jagiellon" is used by any English source. The Polish and the Latin book are irrelevant; the remaining four English-language hits do not mention "Jadwiga Jagiellon". They mention a certain Jadwiga at the end of a sentence and the Jagiellon dynasty at the beggining of the next sentence. Judging by the fact that the name of Louis I of Hungary is given next to the name of that Jadwiga, it is safe to assume that the Jadwiga in question is actually Jadwiga of Poland, after whose name the Jagiellon dynasty is mentioned. Acta Poloniae Historica, on the other hand, clearly refers to "Hedwig Jagiellon, wife of the Brandenburg elector Joachim ll". Hedwig is the form of the name used in English; the fact that the same form of the name is used in German is a mere coincidence, but it does go in favour of the the title Hedwig Jagiellon (1513–1573) (Hedwig being used by two of three relevant languages). Surtsicna (talk) 21:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, when one searches for Jadwiga Electress of Bradenburg, one gets one hit - a 1929 book. When one searches for Hedwig Electress of Bradenburg, one gets c. 100 hits. Of those hits, these are the modern books which refer to this woman:

• Modern German history, by Ralph Flenley, which refers to "Electress Hedwig of Bradenburg, second consort of Joachim II"
• The Early Reformation on the Continent, by Owen Chadwick, which says that "Joachim married a second wife Hedwig" and refers to "the Pole Electress Hedwig"

When one searches for Hedwig wife Joachim Bradenburg, some of the relevant (modern) books you get are:

• Iron kingdom: the rise and downfall of Prussia, 1600-1947, by Christopher M. Clark which refers to "Princess Hedwig of Poland"
• Numerous editions of the Encyclopaedia Britannica‎
• Prince, people, and confession: the Second Reformation in Brandenburg, by Bodo Nischan, which mentions "Hedwig, daughter of King Sigismund of Poland"
• Women of the Reformation in Germany and Italy, by Roland Herbert Bainton, which says that "Joachim II had married the Polish princess Hedwig as his second wife"

Surtsicna (talk) 22:40, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, you make a convincing argument. But:

• search for Jadwiga Joachim Brandenburg yields quite a few hits. Some of the modern relevant hits include:

• Poland, a historical atlas (1987) by Iwo Pogonowski: "Jadwiga = Joachim III Elector of Brandenburg"
• The man of many devices, who wandered full many ways--: festschrift in honour of János M. Bak (1999) by Balázs Nagy, János M. Bak, Marcell Sebők: "It seems that Jadwiga was greatly alarmed by her expected wedding to Prince Joachim II of Brandenburg (1505-71)."
• Europe 1450 to 1789: encyclopedia of the early modern world (2004) by Jonathan Dewald: "Jadwiga, who married the Brandenburg elector, Joachim II (1535)."
• Contemporaries of Erasmus: a biographical register of the Renaissance (2003) by Peter G. Bietenholz, Thomas B. Deutscher: "Jadwiga, who married Joachim the elector of Brandenburg"

So sources indeed use many variants, both Hedwig and Jadwiga (compare also the parity in [1] vs [2]). All things considered, isn't the name she was born with better? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:49, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

The search for Jadwiga Joachim Bradenburg does get many hits (156 hits to be precise), but most of those hits are not books in English. When searching for English-language books which mention Hedwig Joachim Bradenburg, one still gets significantly more results (374) than when searching for all books (regardless of language) which mention Jadwiga Joachim Bradenburg. Not to mention that one gets 458 hits when searching for all books which mention Hedwig Joachim Bradenburg.

[3] and [4] show hardly any English-language sources, meaning that these results are irrelevant.

So, we come to these conclusions:

• Hedwig is obviously the most common name, as can be seen from the Google Book Search results (compare Jadwiga Joachim Bradenburg and Hedwig Joachim Bradenburg, Hedwig wife Joachim Bradenburg and Jadwiga wife Joachim Bradenburg, etc).
• Hedwig is the form of the name used in two out of three relevant languages (English and German vs Polish).
• Referring to her as Hedwig would maintain consistency among the names of the children of Sigismund I (whose names are anglicized as Isabella, Catherine, Sigismund, etc).

"All things considered, isn't the name she was born with better?" It depends on how you look at it. For example, she was surely baptized as Hedwigis, making that her only "official name". She was known as Jadwiga for 22 years (before the marriage) and as Hedwig for 38 years (during the marriage and widowhood). But, once again, discussing the names she used is not neccessary, as English language has its own common name for her - Hedwig.

PS: Sorry for using the name Hedwig in the article before we come to agreement. I just mechanically used the name which is used by the source I cited. Surtsicna (talk) 10:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

You incorrectly state that Hedwig is an English name. According to our article on Hedwig, it is a German given name (just like Jadwiga is Polish). It would appear that the name is simply not given in English... Your links give more results but you incorrectly state that they are only English language: this one for example shows only German books. Hence I am not convinced that Hedwig is more popular in English language, only that in the universe of English/German/Polish books, this search finds more German versions with "Hedwig". Perhaps we should start a WP:RM and let the community decide? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Hedwig is a name of German origin, but it is used in English (St. Hedwig's in Chicago, St. Hedwig Cemetery (Michigan), etc). From the links I provided and the books I cited, everyone can easily see that Hedwig is more used in English-language sources. The only English-language source of the article itself uses the name Hedwig. There can be only two reason why (in the universe of English/German/Polish books) the search finds more books which mention her as "Hedwig": a) there are either more books which mention her as "Hedwig", or b) Google Book Search prefers German language over Polish language. I find the former more likely. Surtsicna (talk) 18:31, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as how Germany is twice as populous as Poland, it stands to reason that it would produce about twice as many books. That's not even factoring in that it may have more money to digitize the books. I think it is a pretty safe assumption that Google Book search includes more German language books than Polish. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:52, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Even if that's true (and it is utterly irrelevant, for this is English-language Wikipedia, not German-language Wikipedia or Polish-language Wikipedia), my other arguments are still in place: there are more English-language books which refer to her Hedwig, the only English-language source of the article itself uses the name as Hedwig, referring to her as Hedwig would maintain consistency among the anglicized names of the children of Sigismund I (whose name is also anglicized), etc. Perhaps we should list all English-language books which mention her, regardless of when they were published, so that we could finally compare all the numbers? Surtsicna (talk) 19:03, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I just noticed that both of us mispelt Brandenburg (how did we both manage to mispell it the same way?). I don't think that affected the results. Surtsicna (talk) 19:19, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Could you select one of our comparative searchers and count the results - Google Books, unfortunately, is only good for rough estimates, as - as you have seen - it does not allow searching by language, and has irrelevant results. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:03, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Piotrus, I'm waiting for the list of all English-language books which refer to her as Jadwiga. Surtsicna (talk) 15:41, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll try to find time for that soon; how about you ask for help on WP:PWNB - maybe somebody will do it before I can? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I've tried asking for help on various WikiProjects (including WP Poland, regarding Polish queens) several times and never got any. I will wait you for several days; I hope that's enough. Surtsicna (talk) 19:44, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I've waited for the books for seven days. It's been clear that Hedwig is the most common name since August. Can we finally close this discussion? Surtsicna (talk) 22:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I have no objections to a move, until such a time that me or somebody else can present the data you need. To be frank, I just don't have time to do such a throughout search on this as you did below. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Alright then. I can understand your lack of time. Information about Jadviga (as she is called in my language) doesn't just pop out. Surtsicna (talk) 15:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Books which refer to her as Hedwig

This is a list of English-language books which refer to the daughter of Sigismund I of Poland as Hedwig Jagiellon (1513–1573). The list does not include different books which mention Hedwig in the same sentences (if two books say: "He was a vassal of the King of Poland and now suggested the Polish King's daughter, Hedwig, as a good second wife for the Brandenburg heir", only one will be listed).

1. Acta Poloniae historica, which refers to "Hedwig Jagiellon, wife of the Brandenburg elector Joachim ll. remained a Catholic."
2. Modern German history, which refers to "Electress Hedwig of Bradenburg, second consort of Joachim II"
3. The Early Reformation on the Continent, which says that "Joachim married a second wife Hedwig" and refers to "the Pole Electress Hedwig"
4. Iron kingdom: the rise and downfall of Prussia, 1600-1947 which refers to "Princess Hedwig of Poland"
5. Prince, people, and confession: the Second Reformation in Brandenburg, which mentions "Hedwig, daughter of King Sigismund of Poland"
6. Women of the Reformation in Germany and Italy, which says that "Joachim II had married the Polish princess Hedwig as his second wife"
7. The Encyclopaedia Britannica: a dictionary of arts, sciences, literature and general information, Volume 15
8. The Hohenzollern household and administration in the sixteenth century, which says: "He was a vassal of the King of Poland and now suggested the Polish King's daughter, Hedwig, as a good second wife for the Brandenburg heir."
9. The new Schaff-Herzog encyclopedia of religious knowledge: embracing Biblical, historical, doctrinal, and practical theology and Biblical, theological, and ecclesiastical biography from the earliest times to the present day (by Johann Jakob Herzog, Philip Schaff, Albert Hauck, Samuel Macauley Jackson, Charles Colebrook Sherman, George William Gilmore), which says: "...when his son Joachim's wife died, he obtained for him the hand of Hedwig..."
10. Encyclopædia Britannica: A New Survey of Universal Knowledge, Volume 13 (and all the other editions), which says that "He was twice married, his second wife being Hedwig, daughter of Sigismund, King of Poland. Joachim made repeated attempts to make peace between the..."
11. History of the German people at the close of the Middle Ages, Volume 17, which refers to "Hedwig, wife of Joachim II. of Brandenburg" and as "Polish princess Hedwig, daughter of King Sigmund"
12. Smith College studies in history, Volume 2, which says that "He was a vassal of the King of Poland and now suggested the Polish King's daughter Hedwig, as a good second wife for the Brandenburg heir"
13. Women of the Reformation in Germany and Italy, which says that "Joachim II had married the Polish princess Hedwig as his second wife and she was a Catholic. If there were any interference with her religion when she"
14. Women and the Reformation, which refers to "Hedwig, the Catholic daughter of the king of Poland"
15. Bibliothèque d'humanisme et Renaissance: Travaux et documents, Volume 23, which refers to Hedwig who "married Joachim II of Brandenburg who was close to Protestantism"
16. Documents illustrative of the Continental Reformation, which refers to "second marriage, 1535, to Hedwig, daughter of the Catholic Sigismund"
17. Dictionary of women worldwide: 25,000 women through the ages, Volume 2, which says that "Sigismund I the Elder's 1st wife was Barbara Zapolya (mother of Hedwig of Poland who m. Joachim II at Brandenburg)"
18. The Renaissance wind band and wind ensemble, which says that "When Joachim II of Brandenburg was married to Hedwig, daughter to Sigismund, in Krakau, in 1533, he seems to have paid all the personal wind bands of all..."
19. The Hohenzollerns, which refers to "Hedwig, of Poland, second wife of Joachim II and Electress of Brandenburg"
20. Biographical Dictionary of Medallists: Supplement M-Z, which refers to "Joachim II of Brandenburg (illustrated) and that of his consort, Hedwig"
21. Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII: Aug.-Dec.,1535, which refers to "his daughter Hedwig, married Joachim II"
22. The history of the popes, from the close of the middle ages: Drawn from the secret archives of the Vatican and other original sources, Volume 11, which refers to "Polish Princess Hedwig, daughter of King Sigismund"
23. Lithuania: Webster’s Quotations, Facts and Phrases, which says that "In 1535 he married Hedwig, daughter of Sigismund I, the Jagiellon Grand Duke of Lithuania and King of Poland."
24. The dictionary of art, Volume 26, which refers to "Hedwig, Electress of Brandenburg (1513-73)"
25. Modes & manners: ornaments; lace, fans, gloves, walking-sticks, parasols, jewelry and trinkets, which refers to "THE ELECTRESS HEDWIG OF BRANDENBURG, SECOND CONSORT OF JOACHIM II"
26. Christina of Denmark, duchess of Milan and Lorraine, 1522-1590, which refers to "Electress Hedwig of Brandenburg"
27. The early Vasas: a history of Sweden 1523-1611, which refers to "Hedwig, daughter of Sigismund I"
28. The Grove encyclopedia of decorative arts, Volume 2, which refers to "Sigismund's daughter Hedwig (1513-73)"
29. Melchior Hoffman: social unrest and apocalyptic visions in the Age of Reformation, which refers to "Hedwig, the daughter of the Catholic King Sigismund I of Poland"
30. History of Friedrich II. of Prussia: called Frederick the Great, which refers to "This second Wife , she of the accident at Grimnitz, was Hedwig, King Sigismund of Poland's daughter; which connexion, it is thought, helped Joachim..."
31. The Papacy and the Levant (1204-1571), which refers to the "son of Joachim II of Brandenburg and Hedwig, daughter of Sigismund I of Poland"
32. Archives internationales d'histoire des idées, Volume 19, which refers to "Hedwig, Sigismund's daughter by his first wife"
33. An encyclopedia of world history, ancient, medieval and modern, chronologically arranged, Volume 1, which refers to "Hedwig m. Joachim II of Brandenburg"
34. Studies in sacred theology, Issue 79, which refers to "Hedwig of Poland (died 1573)" who "remained Catholic"

Surtsicna (talk) 21:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)