Talk:Huw Edwards

Report

Why is his criminal behaviour only mentioned in the last sentence of the third paragraph? It is all he is going to be known for in the future. 82.16.135.131 (talk) 16:19, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I was thinking about this and it should probably be in the opening paragraph, but not the opening sentence. For example, Rolf Harris has a similar consensus after discussion.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:27, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

The day after news has broken is usually a bad time to decide on the relative importance of a piece of information. It is covered in the lead, so nothing is hidden. Wait a while and when the dust settles, you can use secondary sources to assess the relative merits and importance of each piece of information and revisit this. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:06, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that this is similar to Rolf Harris and will pass WP:10YT easily.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:20, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Rolf Harris went to prison for sexual assaulting girls over a long period. Huw Edwards clicked on child abuse images that had been sent to him on WhatsApp. The making offence occurred when he clicked on them (because the making offence refers to making a copy where one did not exist, for instance by downloading). Now I make no excuses here: he chose to click on them, and there was also the context of the relationship in which they were shared. There was an offence, but I do not see how this is comparable with Harris. They are very different cases. I'll add that yes, I think the information that the offences occurred will certainly pass the 10YT. The question is not whether it should be in the article: it should. Neither is the question whether it should be in the lead: it should. The question is only whether this becomes the first thing that there will ever be to say about Edwards. On that, I suggest we wait. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:07, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Yep it's very important not to make comparisons. However I agree there probably should be something in the first paragraph. We're trying to answer the question "Who is Huw Edwards?" in one or two sentences. If I was asked that question, my answer would be something like "He's a former news presenter who's been found guilty of accessing child pornography. He was the BBC's main news presenter for many years, presenting several flagship programmes, until allegations about sexual misconduct came to light".

I disagree with the IP, the sexual offence is not all he's going to be known for. He's primarily notable because of his broadcasting career so it's right that that comes first. It's all about getting the balance right. WaggersTALK 08:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Clarification of the "making" crime

I added to the lede the bolded part: In July 2024, he pleaded guilty to three counts of making indecent images of children, admitting to having received indecent images of children on WhatsApp. - and it was removed by Ianmacm for being personal commentary. I disagree that it is personal commentary, for example BBC News reports: He admitted having 41 indecent images of children, which had been sent to him by another man on WhatsApp, Westminster Magistrates' Court heard. The reason I made the addition is to avoid confusion by readers who are not familiar with the law. It is not obvious that the "making" offense includes simply receiving such images. Readers may be misled to believe that Edwards went around photographing children indecently. starship.paint (RUN) 11:12, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

IMO the wording you propose doesn't add clarity. The additional wording "admitting to having received indecent images" doesn't actually explain the previous clause of "making indecent images" — it sounds supplementary, rather than explanatory. In other words, it isn't obvious that "making" the images and receiving them is the same thing.

We go into more explanation about what is meant by the legal wording "making" here in the article body, which I think is fine. Popcornfud (talk) 11:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

As we know most readers don't read past the lead, and as the lead summarises the main, it is not "fine" just to rely on the explanation in the main. However there may be a better wording that could be employed. The making offence was not "receiving" the images. It occurred when he clicked on and viewed the images, because clicking on them made a new copy.

This comes up whenever the making offence is reported in UK cases. The lead correctly links to the Protection of Children Act page when using the word "making" which flags to a reader that the language is not the plain reading of the word, but it is also very clear that the word is misunderstood often, and people are often misled. There was a curious bit of news reporting on the BBC where they said he pleaded guilty to making the images, but that no one was suggesting he made the images himself. The detail is often lost in the wash. But I support the intent of starship.paint's edit, because our duty here is to inform. It is not personal commentary, because there are media reports (the more careful ones) which have been clearer. However we should probably tweak it. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:39, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I also agree we should clarify what "making" means and there seems to be a clear consensus here to do that, we just need to get the wording right. The Sky News article says "According to the CPS, the term "making" can include opening, accessing, downloading and storing the content, or receiving an image via social media, even if unsolicited and even if part of a group." I wonder if we can find and use a direct quote from the CPS along those lines instead of trying to find our own wording. WaggersTALK 12:23, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Interestingly the CPS's press release on this only talks about "accessing" the images, as does the New York Times. Perhaps we should simply switch "making" to "accessing" in the same way for clarity, at least in the lead. WaggersTALK 12:27, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I've been bold and done that :) WaggersTALK 12:32, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I think that's a reasonable reflection of the sourced content in the article body. Popcornfud (talk) 12:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree. BBC Wales also used "accessing" in their lunchtime bulletin today. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:06, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that the edit did not reflect what the source actually said. It was Edwards' defence team who argued that he did not actually "make" the images as he was sent them on WhatsApp by someone else. The latter part is true, but he was charged with making indecent images of children because that is what the law says. Also, since Edwards had received the images over a considerable period of time, he had lost the opportunity to claim that it was all a one-off innocent mistake, which he might have been able to claim if he had blocked and deleted immediately. I also reverted this edit, because it could be seen as implying that it was the fault of the man in Merthyr Tydfil for sending the images, not Edwards' for receiving them. We may never know how Edwards ended up in contact with a man who sent him serious child porn over a two year period, but Edwards had no choice but to plead guilty.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Multiple sources use "accessing" instead of "making" as discussed above. Some (most?) of those that use "making" in their headline go on to clarify that "making" doesn't mean "making" in the generally understood use of the term. Our aim here is to to make the information easy to understand, not to use precise legalistic language. WaggersTALK 13:28, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Do we need to switch out the reference(s) we've used to ones that lead with "accepting"? WaggersTALK 13:29, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea to explain in the article that "making" can include receiving and accessing. However, when it comes to describing the charges that Edwards faced in court, the article should say "three counts of making indecent images" because that is what was on the charge sheet and that is how the law in this area works.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC).

You reverted a 3:1 nascent consensus there. Also you are wrong. What is on the charge sheet is not what should necessarily be in the lead of an international English language encyclopaedia. The reader need not be versed in English law; there is no requirement for such competence when reading about British legal cases. We need to tell the reader what Edwards did wrong, in summary form in the lead, and in detail in the main. That summary form is not required to follow and thus explain a curious legal term that does not exist in other countries. This is a common issue when the making offence comes up, and our articles usually settle on wording that describes, in plain English, the offence. E.g. "downloading" (although in this case, "accessing" is better). Would you be willing to self revert "accessing" back in please? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:53, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to start an edit war, but I've changed it back to "accessing". Let's make sure there's consensus here for making any further changes to that sentence before doing so, please. WaggersTALK 14:04, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I've already said that he was charged with three counts of making indecent images of children. The general idea on Wikipedia is that you are supposed to stick to what the sourcing says.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:16, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

The sourcing directly quotes the CPS as saying: making indecent images can have a wide definition in the law and can include opening an email attachment containing such an image, downloading one from a website, or receiving one via social media, even if unsolicited and even if part of a group. The sourcing also says regarding "making" that A court must also decide whether an offence falls into the category of possession, distribution or production. According to the Sentencing Council, creating the original image counts as production - the more serious of the three categories. It adds that "making an image by simple downloading should be treated as possession for the purposes of sentencing". This is a BLP and we are duty-bound to represent the subject accurately. Unfortunately "making" can be misunderstood as "production", the most serious offense. I am not wholly opposed to "making" in the lede, as long as his specific offense is clarified to be accessing or possessing in the lede. starship.paint (RUN) 02:19, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't want anyone to get the impression that Edwards created the images himself, as the prosecution never claimed this. The term "making" includes downloading and accessing, which Edwards did and was insufficiently careful over a considerable period of time.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 06:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The term "making" indeed includes accessing under British law. But that's not the point. The point is that "making" is commonly understood to be "produce" or "create". You seriously can't expect the average reader to equate "making" to accessing. starship.paint (RUN) 15:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

This is the result of R v Bowden which leads to a use of the word "making" an indecent image which might not be same as the use of the word "make" in an average dictionary. Many convictions for "making indecent images" in English law involve sharing and downloading the material rather than actually creating it. This is what happened with Huw Edwards.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:32, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Mate, I understand that. Again, do you expect our readers from all over the world to know this? When you do not explain this in the lede, misunderstandings come about. R v Bowden has been viewed around 8,500 times from 2015 to 2014, that's an average of 3 views per day. starship.paint (RUN) 15:36, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

ungrammatical and unclear sentence

The first sentence under "Sexual Misconduct" contains "since they were 17." It's unclear whether "17" refers to the number of images or the age of the teenager. 2602:306:BC65:4779:20B6:93EF:E57A:3958 (talk) 06:22, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I've made it clearer in this edit.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:12, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Disgraced

I find it nauseating that people don’t think “disgraced” should be in the opening sentence. What the f is wrong with you people? EDWARDS is a nonce, a paedophile, a criminal. DrLurve (talk) 14:18, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I think you are mistaking Wikipedia policy for personal opinions? When people disagree with your edit/s and you want to change the lede in an article then you need to discuss it here. You've been reverted a number of times.

Wikipedia relies on reliable sources and what they say. Not our personal opinions.

If you want to add 'disgraced'then calmly discuss that here, along with WP:RS to back up why you think it should be added. Please remain civil. Knitsey (talk) 14:28, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

The fact that people remove ‘disgraced’ from the description of a convicted paedophile tells me everything I need to know about them. But I do see your point. DrLurve (talk) 04:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Good job so far

I see that (inevitably) there has been some disagreement over some of the content on this page, and we're also dealing with some unconstructive edits, but on the whole I think this article is looking surprisingly good. The prose is generally clean, nicely balanced, well sourced and altogether straightforward to read. Nice job to all those who have contributed. Popcornfud (talk) 00:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Fair comment tbh. There are better ways to make sure EDWARDS faces justice than editing the piece here. The truth will out. DrLurve (talk) 04:13, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Calling EDWARDS “Disgraced” is hardly unconstructive. I see downplaying the crimes of a paeadophile / sexual offender worrying. All other significant criminals have their offence mentioned in the opening sentences of their Wikipedia piece. Let’s just say such editing behaviour interests me. Why downplay sexual offences? DrLurve (talk) 04:58, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

This is casting aspersions, which is something that you have also done in various edit summaries relating to this. Huw Edwards is the latest in a long line of articles where someone has said that the article must point out that he is a paedo/nonce/disgraced in the opening sentence. That is not how the lead section is written. Edwards has a Wikipedia article because of his notability as a broadcaster, and his career was wrecked by the child porn convictions in 2024.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Please read and understand WP:NPA. Your attitude isn't helping your case. --Ef80 (talk) 09:34, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

It's gone beyond that - DeLurve is blocked indef blocked yesterday. WaggersTALK 10:16, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for making this comment @Popcornfud. Even where there has been disagreement, for the most part it has been handled sensitively and sensibly. When Wikipedia works as it should like this it's a lovely experience to be part of it. WaggersTALK 10:17, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. In the opening, only the third paragraph refers to his perversion. And even then most is about accusations that were decided not to be illegal. Only in the very last sentence is it mentioned that he is convicted for child pornography crimes. 82.16.135.131 (talk) 16:20, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

See the thread Talk:Huw_Edwards#Report above. Personally I think this should be in the opening paragraph somewhere, but there needs to be a consensus. According to legal experts, Edwards is likely to receive a suspended sentence for this in September rather than actually going to prison. Nevertheless, his career is wrecked and the saga has led to bad publicity for the BBC.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 16:48, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Although I am not opposed on principle to mentioning this in the first paragraph, I think the IPs comment ably demonstrates why it would be a bad idea to do so now. At this time we still don't know about the outcome, or what comments will be made about this. We are very much in the midst of events, and that always lends them an importance that may not be lasting. It seems to me that this will always be very notable, but perhaps not the first thing we should say about a veteran broadcaster. We should wait to see what secondary sources (and news reporting is not a secondary source) say about him, and then follow those. What we should not do is pander to anyone who thinks that perversion is an editorial criterion for consideration in a BLP. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:32, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

There's a danger there of overcompensating in the face of bombast. The end of the first paragraph ("...from 2003 to 2023") does, to me, read oddly. It hangs heavily, as though no one wants to mention what happened. It cries out for a continuation along the lines of "...when he resigned because...". I think it may be over-scrupulous to resist the overwhelming mainstream opinion that it's finished him and in a way that will define him. DeCausa (talk) 11:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

How about "until his resignation in 2023"? That makes it clear there is a resignation, and the natural flow therefore would expect that to be expanded in a following paragraph, which it is. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

But he didn't resign in 2023. He left the BBC "on medical advice" in April 2024. One of the notable features of this saga is the Mexican standoff that occurred between Edwards and the BBC after the July 2023 allegations in The Sun. The BBC didn't want to sack him and Edwards didn't want to resign. So the stalemate continued for around ten months with Edwards suspended on full pay, which is now controversial and the BBC wants over £200,000 of his salary back.[1]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:09, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The BBC are on record as saying he would have been dismissed if he had been employed when he was charged. He was arrested last Autumn and he did in fact resign[2] (whether or not it was on medical advice, it was still a resignation) prior to being charged. I would suggest that that all translates into a sentence at the end of the first paragraph saying "He resigned from the BBC in 2024 during a police investigation into child pornography offences for which he was subsequently convicted". DeCausa (talk) 12:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. The first paragraph - in fact the whole lead - is looking pretty much spot on now, I think. WaggersTALK 09:20, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Hadn't noticed it had been added a few days ago. I think the paragraph works and is reasonable. DeCausa (talk) 11:19, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

My only concern is that we now say something twice in the lead. Once in the first paragraph and then again in the last sentence. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

The last paragraph has got perhaps some unnecessary detail. What about:

In July 2023, Edwards was suspended by the BBC following allegations of sexual misconduct made in The Sun. A police investigation found no evidence of criminal misconduct concerning those allegations. However, other evidence obtained during the investigation led to Edwards being prosecuted for accessing indecent images of children. He pleaded guilty at his trial in July 2023 and will be sentenced in September.

I think that would deal with any duplication. DeCausa (talk) 12:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Not quite, because the police said that the arrest and prosecution of Alex Williams was a separate matter. It appears that it had nothing directly to do with the July 2023 allegations in The Sun.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Do we know for sure that the evidence was found during that investigation? Deb (talk) 12:23, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

It could say "other unrelated evidence" and "during a separate investigation" but I wasn't quite sure if the latter was right. It was the Met rather than S. Wales police so I guess it must have been technically a separate investigation. DeCausa (talk) 12:26, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Another thought: the conviction really overshadows the Sun allegations now. I wonder if they are even lead-worthy now? DeCausa (talk) 12:42, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

It was described as an "entirely unrelated investigation".[3] This makes sense, because the police had said in July 2023 that Edwards had done nothing illegal. This BBC News article says "8 November 2023: Edwards is arrested after a phone seized during an unrelated investigation reveals his participation in the WhatsApp exchanges with Williams".--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)