Talk:Beaufort-Spontin

Sources

@user:Blairall I am reverting your edits her and on the page Frederic Augustus Alexander, Duke of Beaufort-Spontin where those edits were based on the following source because the following source is not a Wikipedia reliable source

• http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/spontin.html

-- PBS (talk) 14:29, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments above regarding the changes that I had made to the articles House of Beaufort-Spontin and Frederic Augustus Alexander, Duke of Beaufort-Spontin. I now see your point that the source I used is not considered to be a "reliable source" for Wikipedia references. As a result, I have now taken a lot of time to do some more thorough research and find reliable sources for support, which I have listed below.

The House of Beaufort-Spontin article lists Frederic Augustus Alexander (1751–1817) as the first Duke of Beaufort-Spontin, which is correct, but then the article lists Alfred Charles August (1816–1888) as the 2nd Duke of Beaufort-Spontin. However, it appears that Alfred Charles August had an elder brother, Frederic Louis Ladislas (1809-1834), who actually inherited the title of Duke when his father died in 1817 (based on the sources that I found and have noted here below). Frederic Louis Ladislas was therefore the 2nd Duke of Beaufort-Spontin, but he died (unmarried) at age 25 in 1834, thus he doesn't get much mention in historical texts. He was succeeded by his brother Alfred (1816–1888), who was thus the 3rd Duke of Beaufort-Spontin.

I have just now spent a great deal of time doing research about this, and I have found various 19th century texts which confirm that Frederic Louis Ladislas was the 2nd Duke, followed by his brother Alfred as the 3rd Duke. Here are some of the sources that I just found:

1) The Almanach de Gotha from 1834 lists Frederic Louis Ladislas as the Duke, with Alfred listed as his younger brother. To see the original book in Google books, you can click on the link that follows:

Almanach de Gotha (in French). Gotha: Justus Perthes. 1834. pp. 74–75. Retrieved February 11, 2015. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

2) The Annuaire de la noblesse de Belgique from 1848 lists Alfred as the Duke and states that he succeeded his brother Duke Frederic Louis Ladislas on 10 Nov. 1834. To see the original book in Google books, you can click on the link that follows:

De Stein d'Altenstein, Isidore, ed. (1848). Annuaire de la noblesse de Belgique (in French). Brussels: Auguste Decq. p. 60. Retrieved February 11, 2015. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

3) The Almanach de Gotha from 1865 lists Alfred as the Duke and indicates that he succeeded his brother Duke Frederic Louis Ladislas on 10 Nov. 1834. To see the original book in Google books, you can click on the link that follows:

Almanach de Gotha (in French). Gotha: Justus Perthes. 1865. p. 115. Retrieved February 11, 2015. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

4) Frederic Louis Ladislas is also mentioned in general works about his father, Frederic Augustus Alexander, including the following works:

a) see the bottom of page 308 at the link that follows: Goethals, Félix-Victor (1859). "Frédéric-Auguste-Alexandre, duc de Beaufort-Spontin". Histoire généalogique de la maison de Beaufort-Spontin (in French). Brussels: Polack-Duvivier. p. 308. Retrieved February 11, 2015.

b) see the bottom of page 451 at the link that follows: Poplimont, Ch. (1863). La Belgique héraldique: recueil historique, chronologique, généalogique et biographique complet de toutes les maisons nobles reconnues de la Belgique (in French). Vol. Vol. 1. Brussels. p. 451. Retrieved February 11, 2015. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

5) Please let me know whether you consider the above information to be sufficient confirmation that Frederic Louis Ladislas inherited the title of Duke when his father died, thus making him the 2nd Duke of Beaufort-Spontin. If you agree with that, then please confirm whether you would, as a result, consider his younger brother Alfred to have been the 3rd Duke of Beaufort-Spontin, not the 2nd Duke. If so, then perhaps you would consider editing the article to make the necessary corrections. Thanks for your help.

- Blairall (talk) 23:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

When I originally created the article I addled the current (as it says in the history of the article "list of dukes taken from an unreliable source so not cited http://geneall.net/en/name/151250/friedrich-christian-duke-of-beaufort-spontin/ ". which is the reason why the list carries not citations.

So there is certainly no grantee that the current list is correct. It was just that if it is going to be altered it is better that it is done using reliable sources rather then piling facts from unreliable sources on top of each other.

It seems that you have found some reliable sources that cover it for this second duke. well done . I suggest that with citations like:

• Poplimont, Ch. (1863). La Belgique héraldique: recueil historique, chronologique, généalogique et biographique complet de toutes les maisons nobles reconnues de la Belgique (in French). Vol. Vol. 1. Brussels. p. 451. Retrieved February 11, 2015. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

That you alter

• url=http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NXFWAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA451#v=onepage&q&f=false

to

• page=[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NXFWAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA451#v=onepage&q&f=false 148]

(also don't give an access date for {{cite book}} only do that for {{cite web}}) so then the citation will appear as

• Poplimont, Ch. (1863). La Belgique héraldique: recueil historique, chronologique, généalogique et biographique complet de toutes les maisons nobles reconnues de la Belgique (in French). Vol. Vol. 1. Brussels. p. 451. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

This is because if I click on the title of a book I expect to be at the start of the book not some random page in the middle of it. So I think it is more informative to link page links to the page parameter. If I am going to cite multiple pages from a book then I only link to the first page and expect the user to navigate to the other pages so I do not include multiple links eg:

• Poplimont, Ch. (1863). La Belgique héraldique: recueil historique, chronologique, généalogique et biographique complet de toutes les maisons nobles reconnues de la Belgique (in French). Vol. Vol. 1. Brussels. p. 451–452, 460. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

-- PBS (talk) 18:02, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your very thoughtful comments and detailed explanation of these aspects of editing. I particularly appreciate your good advice regarding the proper format for citing books and linking to the relevant page in a book. I am very thankful for your understanding and your willingness to provide useful suggestions, which is of great help. -- Blairall (talk) 20:55, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the thanks. So when are you going to make the changes based on your recently found reliable sources? -- PBS (talk) 22:43, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I will make the necessary corrections this week. -- Blairall (talk) 16:02, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I have now made the changes mentioned above, and please feel free to make any adjustments that would be suitable. -- Blairall (talk) 21:11, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. I have split the citations into short and long ones, but left the text alone. Ideally we need a citation from a realisable sources for the most recent member as he comes under WP:BLP. -- PBS (talk) 23:37, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

That looks great now that you have split the citations into short and long ones. I have just now quickly looked for a citation from a reliable source for the current Duke, but I did not find a source online that could be considered completely reliable. A good source could be the Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, but I could not find a free copy online of a relevant version, and I don't have access to any print versions. -- Blairall (talk) 03:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The advantage of an encyclopaedia that anyone can edit, means that another editor may come by who may have access to the volume you mention. However how is your German? see de:Beaufort-Spontin the cite:

• http://www.freyr.be/relatives/d/rd--ein-wort-von-friedrich-von-beaufort-spontin.php

which has an English translation

• http://www.freyr.be/relatives/e/re--a-word-from-frederic-of-beaufort-spontin.php?lang=en#.VO82h47d3qs

which according to

http://www.freyr.be/menu-freyr-in-english.php

would seem to indicate that "ein-wort-von-friedrich-von-beaufort-spontin" is genuine.

It is not the best source because it does not state that he is the Duke and of course it is not from a reliable third party source, but I think it is better than nothing. -- PBS (talk) 15:18, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with your conclusions, so you may as well add that citation. If a better source is subsequently found, then it can be added at that point. -- Blairall (talk) 18:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Done. As PBS anticipated, I own a copy of the 2007 Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, which has a chapter on the Beaufort-Spontins. However, unlike the source you've used, it maintains that all of this family's titles were received from the House of Habsburg; their princely rank is recognized in the Kingdom of Belgium, but not conferred by its dynasty, nor by that of the Netherlands between 1815 and 1830. Indeed, although the family lived in and sometimes governed the Austrian Netherlands until the mid-1700s, (Charles, Marquis de Beaufort-Spontin 1713-1753 wed in Florennes in 1747), thereafter they essentially became courtiers and generals based at the Viennese court of the Emperor, frequently sojourning on their vast properties on France's northern border, alternately marrying in Paris and Vienna. They still seem to have wintered at various châteaux in what became Belgium throughout the 19th century, but they married more Austrian than Belgian noblewomen, and by the 20th century they are born or die at their Petschau estate in Austrian Bohemia. The two surviving males live in Austria and the four daughters the brothers have between them were all born or live in Austria. FactStraight (talk) 09:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Is there any reason why Friedrich, 6th Duke does not have a citation? -- PBS (talk) 10:15, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Oops, no. Fixed. FactStraight (talk) 15:38, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

The most recent publication on this family is Etat présent de la noblesse belge (2003), p. 165-168. There is confirmed that only the titles of duke, marquis and count are officially conferred by the King of the Netherlands in 1816. Paul Brussel (talk) 13:31, 5 August 2017 (UTC)