Talk:Honorary titles of Russia

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Meritorious Scientist vs Meritorious Scholar

"Zasluzhenny Deyatel' Nauki" may refer not only to academics who hold a degree in Sciences, but also in Arts, Humanities etc. IMHO "scholar" would have suited better ~ a native Russian speaker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.76.221.11 (talk) 19:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:58, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Honoured vs Merited

I'm concerned with misuse (my opinion) of term "Honoured" in the article. There are two close terms in Russian award systems:

• Honoured - Russian: Почётный and
• Merited - Russian: Заслуженный.
  Looking similar semantically these two are very different in legal terms (statute - only second one is a Russia state award, first one is ministerial award only). Over the wiki we can see wide usage of translation "Merited" for Russian: Заслуженный (ref. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=merited&fulltext=Search) and "Honoured" for Russian: Почётный (ref. Ministerial awards of the Russian Federation for example). So, my proposal is to rename within the article all "Honoured" for "Merited". The article name could be unchanged. Looking for opinions and will do the replacement in a reasonable time if there will be no objections Apetrov09703 (talk) 11:33, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

-The term Merited makes no sense in English in this context. This translation is too literal and doesn't convey the true meaning and level. "Merited" only means "earned", completely inadequate when describing these high awards. The term "Honoured" has been accepted and used for decades within phaleristics circles and references material worldwide when describing Soviet and Russian ODMs. Fdutil (talk) 18:03, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Please, answer my question above - how to handle two awards with different legal status and different Russian names: Russian: Почётный and Russian: Заслуженный, - if try to use the same translation "Honoured" for both? Apetrov09703 (talk) 17:19, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

In English it works, it works exactly the same as in Russian with Памятный знаки that is used for "memorable", for "commemorative" and for "decoration". You can make the difference because it is your first language and you know the awards and which terms are used in Russian in phaleristics. A term can have multiple meanings as you can see. How do you differentiate then? The same as you in Russian, by knowing the awards and understanding what they stand for. I assure you this is correct for English. My compliments. Fdutil (talk) 21:47, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Dear Fdutil, thank you for reply and explanation. However, you rather support my position because you argue about synonymous terms which are the cases only for instances not limited in other form. But our case is two legally defined instances with legally assigned different names in native language. That is why I suppose it is not correct to translate the official names of two different awards by one name (exactly the same) in other language. Your examples show the other way - to find appropriate words for each different part of the Russian names of the awards considered. Other way, if the discussed differences are not notable for English-speaking public, better just delete one award (with legal status Russian: Почётный) to avoid misleading the readers. Regards Apetrov09703 (talk) 05:29, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Dear colleague, I believe you missed my point. You accept a single Russian word where multiple different words in English exist and are used. Yet fail to understand and accept this might actually be possible the other way around? The mere existence of a word doesn’t mean it is used or even applies. In this case “merited” is neither used not applies due to intricacies of the language. In this instance, the term “Honored” is the English word used for both your Russian terms, even if it seems incorrect when translated back into Russian. I did not invent this, it has been the accepted terminology in all English language phaleristics circles since the inception of these awards. Individual interpretation shouldn’t prevail in this or any matter in these articles. Cordially.Fdutil (talk) 20:44, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

OK, thanks again and the last question - how to deal with Wikidata items. If there are two items with two different Russian labels if it is possible to assign them single (similar) English label? I am not sure... Apetrov09703 (talk) 20:57, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't have an answer for you there... Another point about translation into English, "chest badge" is not the proper term in English, we use "breast badge". You can check every single English article on orders, decorations and medals, you will always see "breast insignia", "left or right breast", never chest. Cheers. Fdutil (talk) 01:52, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for education (breast badge), my English is quiet narrow (just profession). Concerning the Wikidata items I have made an experiment and the answer is NO. It is impossible to assign one English label to two different items. So, finally there will be a need for different English terms say for Russian: Заслуженный машиностроитель and Russian: Почётный машиностроитель. However, at the moment I would propose to pause this discussion. Best regards and take care in current disturbing times Apetrov09703 (talk) 07:33, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

My pleasure. Stay healthy dear colleague. Fdutil (talk) 13:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC)