Talk:Grossaktion Warsaw

Lemma

"Gross Aktion" is a term like "operation" in English, it needs a date or a placename. There were many actions called "Gross Aktion". For example here During the "Gross Aktion" of October 28-29, 1941, at Kaunas in Lithuania during which 9,200 Jews were murdered . In Stroop´s final report it clearly says "a" Grossaktion.

Article should be renamed "Großaktion Warschau" as there is not THE Gross Aktion. --ThePiedCow (talk) 14:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• Simplicity is the name of the game per wp:naming conventions (events)#Definitions. For as long as there is no other Wikipedia article claiming the right to the same title, there’s no reason to change anything. Eventually, the name can be changed. However, the most appropriate pleonasm will not be in German, but in English, i.e. the Operation Gross Aktion in Warsaw or similar. Meanwhile, the Google Book Search reveals, that the idiom Gross Aktion is most often used in relation to Warsaw Ghetto anyways. --Poeticbent talk 17:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

If I follow your link wp:naming conventions (events)#Definitions I read: A common name or standing expression exists if most English speakers who are aware of the topic call it the same thing. and people aware of the topic know there were many incidents called "Gross Aktion".

And your googlebook search doesn´t show that anyone calls this incident simply "Gross Aktion"

(First result: After the so-called Gross Aktion of July to September 1942 [that's in Warsaw]

2nd: a Gross-Aktion by SS Sonderkommando

3rd: the night of the Gross Aktion in the Warsaw Ghetto

The title is wrong and misleading, as it suggests that historians reserve this name for one incident. This might be true from a Polish point of view, and in an article about Warsaw you may find in the text remarks about the "Gross Aktion". English speaking historians know also other incidents as "Gross Aktion", in fact this guideline seems to apply : wp:Naming_conventions_(numbers_and_dates)#Other_events. As there were some events with that name, identification by place seems reasonable.

I don´t mean to push a German name, maybe Gross Aktion in the Warsaw Ghetto. --ThePiedCow (talk) 14:02, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

• Please take a good look at the above Google results for Gross Aktion. Better yet, look at the same results with the word Warsaw added to your book search. It yelds 52 books featuring Gross Aktion.[1] Gross Aktion Warszawa yelds additional 53 results.[2] In contrast, if you add Kaunas instead of Warsaw, not a single result yelds the actual Gross Aktion. Among the results [3] there is only Aktion Erntefest, Great Aktion Kaunas, and Die Aktion Kaunas. That's it. Everything else is a miss. Needless to say, I'm having considerable difficulty figuring out what it is that you're trying to convince me about. The title is correct and clearly most appropriate. Thanks. --Poeticbent talk 21:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

If one is to argue the case through Google books, I suggest that an English-language search for “gross aktion” + Warsaw is more appropriate. The result[4] brings a mere five returns (two others are repetitions of another article, another is in Polish). Not one of these five examples – one of which is a novel in translation – defines “Gross Aktion” as a term that refers specifically to “a Nazi German operation of mass extermination of Jews, conducted by SS Sonderkommando 4a in the Warsaw Ghetto, beginning July 22, 1942.” Indeed, the only definition provided by the five appears in ‘’Resistance’’ by Israel Gutman, in which the author writes that a “Gross-aktion” is a “large operation”. Note that the Gutman quote appears at a line break (as do the Kazimierz Moczarski and Yad a-shem quotes) He later defines “Grossaktion” (note no line break) a second time, as “great action”.

On a related point: a Google book search for “Gross Aktion” leads to ten unique English-language hits (most of which are actually “Gross-aktion" and appear at line breaks).[5] “Grossaktion”, on the other hand, gives 55 unique English-language hits.[6]

I think it correct to state that when employed in English-language texts, “Grossaktion” is more often used in relation to the events in Warsaw than any other operation, but does not specify the event. There is no evidence that “most English speakers who are aware of the topic call it the same thing”. 74.15.29.56 (talk) 20:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• I'm very much interested in perfecting this article if possible. The term "Gross Aktion" or "Grossaktion" is a loanword from German in any language other than German. Therefore it makes less difference whether the original source is written in English or Polish (the actual term does not exist in any of these two languages). However, since the subject of the article is so closely connected with Polish historiography, I was tempted to trust its terminology. The most reliable source in this instance was for me the Institute of National Remembrance, a government sponsored institution devoted entirely to Polish modern history. Please see: Marcin Urynowicz (IPN), Gross Aktion – ZAGłADA WARSZAWSKIEGO GETTA On a separate note, please remember to always provide links backing up your assertions, so they can be examined by others. Thanks. --Poeticbent talk 16:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

English is a language containing many thousands of loan words, and there is nothing in Wikipedia's guidelines to suggest that their use should be sensitive to the historiography of one ethnic group/nationality or another. In essence the question over the title of this article boils down to wp:naming conventions (events)#Definitions, which states: "A common name or standing expression exists if most English speakers who are aware of the topic call it the same thing." We've not been able to find a single reference to indicate that the words "Gross Aktion" (or "Grossaktion") are used in English to refer specifically to the operation in the Warsaw Ghetto. Does the Polish-language source you've provided make this claim? If not, it is irrelevant; if so, I am left wondering why an English-language source to this claim can't be found. I'm with ThePiedCow on this one; "Gross Aktion in the Warsaw Ghetto" is perhaps the best name. 74.15.29.56 (talk) 18:29, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

• I'm afraid you misunderstood my request. I did not ask you for yet another link to WP:NCE. I asked for additional book sources such as Resistance: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising by Israel Gutman (quote) "In reports sent to his superiors, Stroop refers to the action as a Gross-aktion" Such sources apparently do exist. --Poeticbent talk 19:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd provided the results of the searches mentioned in my first post, thinking that these are the "assertions" to which you were referring. I see that it is the Israel Gutman, Kazimierz Moczarski and Yad va-shem examples to which you refer. I also see that you've quoted the first of these (""In reports sent to his superiors, Stroop refers to the action as a Gross-aktion"), yet you've chosen to leave out the final three words. The complete sentence reads"In reports sent to his superiors, Stroop refers to the action as a Gross-aktion (a large operation)." Note that Gutman defines the term and states that Stroop claimed the action to be a "Gross-aktion", not the "Gross-aktion". Grossman's second, similar definition of "Grossaktion" (note no line break) as "great action" is found here. The Kazimierz Moczarski and Yad va-shem examples of line-breaks are found (Kazimierz Moczarski) and here (Yad va-shem).

I recognize that you did not ask for a link to WP:NCE, and did not provide it in answer to any perceived request. Rather I was quoting the guidelines on this matter. I know that this guideline was already raised by ThePiedCow, but it has yet to be addressed. As stated in my previous post, I believe the guideline speaks to the essence of the question.

As I have no knowledge of the Polish language, would you please answer my question from the last post: Does the Polish-language source you've provided state that "Gross Aktion" is used in English to refer specifically to the operation in the Warsaw Ghetto? 74.15.29.56 (talk) 22:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The reference provided does not support the assertion that "Gross Aktion" is used by English speakers to refer specifically to "a Nazi German operation of mass extermination of Jews, conducted by SS Sonderkommando 4a in the Warsaw Ghetto, beginning July 22, 1942." A failed verification tag has been added. 76.64.212.106 (talk) 17:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Responding to this edit, I've restored the failed verification tag. I recognize that the definition of "Gross Aktion" has been changed somewhat (from "a Nazi German operation of mass extermination of Jews, conducted by SS Sonderkommando 4a in the Warsaw Ghetto, beginning July 22, 1942" to "a Nazi German operation of mass extermination of Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto beginning July 22, 1942"), but does not address the fact that the source provided gives no indication that the term is used by English speakers to refer specifically to this event. 76.64.212.106 (talk) 12:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I've rearranged sources to accentuate those in the English language. Here's a different one which I didn't put in because of it being just a snippet (with little additional information except for the confirmation of the name Gross Aktion in the Warsaw Ghetto).

Yalkut Moreshet: Holocaust Documentation and Research University of Michigan, 2003.

I repeat, there are ample references for the name Gross Aktion in Warsaw, but they are not needed here. --Poeticbent talk 14:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I do appreciate the most recent attempts [7][8] at clarification, but note that the new reference provides no support to the claim. In its entirety the quote reads: "After the so-called Gross Aktion of July to September 1942, when 300,000 Jews murdered by bullet of gas, [Wladyslaw] Szlengel, astonishingly, reached the peak of his activity, expressed in some of his most potent poems". Of course it was a "so-called" grossaktion (I chose here the term as it appears in the vast majority of English-language texts), one of several thus described during the war, but it not known to English speakers as the grossaktion. I regret that I've had to repeat this last observation, but neither it, nor others made in the posts of 24 September 2008 have yet been addressed.

I don't see that the snippet taken from Yalkut Moreshet, referenced above, in any way supports the assertion. Again, it may have been designated a "Gross Aktion" (or, to be more accurate, "grossaktion") by Jurgen Stroop, but there were others. Similarly, not a one of the sources provided in the google book search Gross Aktion in Warsaw (many of which I have discussed above) indicates that the operation is known as the "Gross Aktion". In fact, the vast majority of the titles featured do not even include the term "Gross Aktion". As I'v suggested previously, “gross aktion” + Warsaw (as opposed to Gross Aktion in the Warsaw Ghetto) provides a more accurate search.

Again, I support the suggestion put forth by ThePiedCow, that "Gross Aktion in the Warsaw Ghetto" (or, even better, "Grossaktion in Warsaw") might be a better title. 76.64.212.106 (talk) 15:21, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm getting increasingly tired of us going round in circles. "Grossaktion in Warsaw" yields 2 (two) results, one in Polish (from a high school exam supplement) and one in English. That's not enough for a reason to change. Secondly, it was not the User:ThePiedCow but me, who suggested that—for as long as there are no other articles by the same title—WP:NCE provides us with a clear and easy to understand principle. I have nothing against renaming the article if necessary, but you're making it worse. I suggest next time you do your own research for this surplus of ideas. --Poeticbent talk 16:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Poeticbent, I'm afraid you misunderstand, I suggest "Grossaktion in Warsaw" not because of any google book search, but as the title of a grossaktion which took place in Warsaw. That particular grossaktion is no more known to English speakers as the grossaktion than Operation Abercrombie is known as the Operation.

As far as I know, User:ThePiedCow has never been credited with the suggestion that the title should remain "for as long as there are no other articles by the same title". The suggestion was made by you and I see no credit being placed elsewhere. You add that WP:NCE provides us with a clear and easy to understand principle. Here we agree. The beginning clearly states: "If there is an established, universally agreed-upon common name for an event, use that name. Otherwise, create a name using these guidelines. In most cases, the title of the article should contain at least the following two descriptors: Where the incident happened. What happened." Thus, in the absence of "an established, universally agreed-upon common name", I have proposed "Grossaktion in Warsaw", while ThePiedCow has put forth "Gross Aktion in the Warsaw Ghetto". Both follow the convention (Where: Warsaw/Warsaw Ghetto. What: Grossaktion/Gross Aktion). At no point in WP:NCE is there a suggestion that any title should stay in place "for as long as there are no other articles by the same title". 76.64.212.106 (talk) 17:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

As it seems my most recent comment is being met with silence, I am restoring the failed sources template and requesting comment at the Wikiprojects listed above. 76.64.212.106 (talk) 11:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

At the suggestion of Piotrus, I've also made a request for comment. 76.64.212.106 (talk) 14:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Request for comment on title

The title of the article is being disputed by two users - myself (as 74.15.29.56 and 76.64.212.106) and The PiedCow. In short, while we agree that the subject was a grossaktion, it is not known to English-speakers as the grossaktion. We have suggested “Gross Aktion in the Warsaw Ghetto “and “Grossaktion in Warsaw” as possible alternatives. Poeticbent, the creator of the article, disagrees. 76.64.212.106 (talk) 14:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Title ought to be specified: The current title is disambiguous. "Großaktion"/"Grossaktion" is not an English loanword or scientific term. Großaktion / Grossaktion (both spellings apply, "ss" is a redundant spelling of "ß") is just a German word for a large-scale operation. As such, it is used, as far as I saw, in most English works in connection with the Warsaw events. Does that mean Grossaktion has become the English term for this operation? No, that simply means that there are more English publications on the Warsaw Großaktion than on other ones. Moreover, these publications always specify the Großaktion, in none I saw the reader is left alone with the term by the author, it is always specified within the same sentence or paragraph. This indicates that the term by itself is not sufficient to give the reader an idea what's being talked about. Furthermore, the term is also used in other works unrelated to the Warsaw operation. I will provide two examples, the first one is about spies in post-war West Germany (completely unrelated to Warsaw), the second one uses the term for an anti-Jewish operation in Berlin, showing that the term would not even be sufficiently specified by adding an "anti-Jew" or "SS" or "WWII" component to it, but that there must be a specification indicating the area of this operation. Thus, I would suggest Grossaktion Warsaw (1942). Skäpperöd (talk) 06:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I have no opinion about the year, but the area must be included. Agathoclea (talk) 08:40, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Title ought to be specified, as I already tried to point out above on the talkpage. Poeticebent´s sources for "Gross Aktion" are not convincing: One is Polish and doesn´t help for finding the English name. In his other source he skipped the "so-called". An established name is not described as "so-called", so this source clearly votes against the current Lemma. All provided sources per google-search so far specify the event somehow by date and/or place. Thus, place must be added, date should be added. --ThePiedCow (talk) 13:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Title ought to be confirmed in research. I’m closely following this discussion. I wished there was an easy answer. In accordance with Wikipedia policy guidelines which I mentioned several times already, we are not suppose to engage in wp:original research meaning, to rename existing articles only because we think that our personal preferences would make them look better somehow. Please include in all suggested new titles actual Google links that support the exact wording you promote. Or, better yet, suggest a disambiguation page supported by word–for–word searches (for wp:verifiability) with identical titles referring to different events, places and years. None of the new ideas from above are being cited from the actual Holocaust literature. Your preferences are not the same as evidence. --Poeticbent talk 16:52, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

You cite the wrong policy. WP:OR does not implement that an article should be left without or only with a highly disambiguous title if there is not "the" most widespread title (which is certainly the case here). So we have to create a nonambiguous title according to the guidelines, and that's certainly not "Grossaktion". Maybe it will help you as a Polish speaker (?, just my guess) to understand just how disambiguous the current title is, if you think of encountering an article titled "Akcja" without any specification. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

In fact, wp:original research has never before been mentioned, nor is it of relevance in this discussion. Although the failed verification tag has twice been removed [9][10] the sources provided do not support the claim that “Gross Aktion” is a name used specifically in reference to the event under discussion. There is indeed an “easy answer”. As noted previously the beginning of WP:NCE states: "If there is an established, universally agreed-upon common name for an event, use that name. Otherwise, create a name using these guidelines. In most cases, the title of the article should contain at least the following two descriptors: Where the incident happened. What happened." I regret having to repeat this, and do so only because this observation has received no response.

I support Skäpperöd’s suggestion that Grossaktion Warsaw (1942) is appropriate. 76.64.215.153 (talk) 11:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Grossaktion is not an English word. It is not a neologism nor a calque. The proposed above title is a linguistic oddity, because the English word for "Aktion" is "operation" ("Grossaktion" in Polish is not just "akcja", but "wielka akcja", or "akcja główna"), hence, there can be Operation Abercrombie in Wikipedia, but not Aktion Abercombie. A new descriptive name would have to resemble a pleonasm which I already mentioned. Operation Grossaktion in Warsaw or something like that. The actual year is of lesser importance because there was no other event by the same name in the history of the city. --Poeticbent talk 13:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but weren't you the one pushing for "Grossaktion" in the title? Either we keep and specify it, or we translate and specify it. I'd reject a combination of both "operation" and "Grossaktion" as unnecessary double trouble. In case we translate "Grossaktion", the date becomes even more important, as with the German term missing it would be even more difficult to conclude the article's scope from the title, and that's what the title is for actually. There must have been numerous "operations" in and around Warsaw, at least the German term would indirectly limit the period to German occupation.

This is a RfC on a title and therefore only a virtual RM issue, but so far a fair consensus has been reached for (a) nessecity of a move, and (b) for "Grossaktion Warsaw (1942)" as a title. I suggest turning this into a RM if Poeticbent does not present an alternative title that has a fair chance of being agreed on. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

User: 76.64.215.153 asked for feedback here and here. Let's wait and see. Grossaktion Warsaw (1942) is not good enough. It is a peculiarity, but please don't get me wrong; I'm still waiting for the best possible answer. I'm not "pushing" for anything... Gross Aktion was based on a source, that's all. --Poeticbent talk 15:06, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It has been well established through sources provided by Poeticbent, ThePiedCow and myself that the event is referred to in English-language texts as a grossaktion. It follows that the title should reflect which grossaktion. Grossaktion Warsaw (1942), suggested by Skäpperöd, is supported by Agathoclea and myself. ThePiedCow's last stated preference was for Gross Aktion in the Warsaw Ghetto. Both titles follow WP:NCE. Poeticbent, you have stated that Grossaktion Warsaw (1942) is "not good enough" and that it is a "peculiarity". Could you elaborate? 76.64.215.153 (talk) 16:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry for moving the lemma without any participation in the discussion. This is not my style. I even checked the discussion, but all the templates above the real text kept me from looking to the end. In most of the articles I edit there is no text in the discussion, only templates. Kind regards, Gerhard51 (talk) 20:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest to call the lemma Grossaktion Warschau. Gross Aktion is definitively orthographically uncorrect in the German language. Most probably the Nazis didn't use it. Großaktion, Groß-Aktion or to leave the ß Grossaktion or Gross-Aktion would be correct in German language. In an encyclopedia I would tend to name a lemma not in a way most used by Google. But I finally had not the time and possibilities to check more serious sources than Google to find out how it was originally called. Kind regards, Gerhard51 (talk) 21:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

In the German Wikipedia I found Ghetto-Großaktion in de:Aufstand im Warschauer Ghetto#Die folgenden 24 Tage. This could be another possibility. But the Grossaktion must be tagged somehow. It would be like to call it a victory or a defeat without any further specification. Kind regards again, Gerhard51 (talk) 22:07, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

It appears that the most recent observations and queries are being met with silence. Barring any further discussion, I move that the article be renamed Grossaktion Warsaw (1942), as suggested by Skäpperöd. 76.64.215.153 (talk) 11:52, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be allright for me. Adding a date gives further orientation to the reader. Gerhard51 (talk) 20:13, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Overlooked?

There is an ambiguity in the sentence "the deportations, overlooked by the Jewish Ghetto Police,[10] were to the Treblinka death camp and not for the purpose of resettlement..." Apart from straying somewhat from standard English (surely the Jewish Ghetto Police cannot literally have failed to notice the deportations taking place), "overlooked" is ambiguous. Can anyone familiar with the reference material in 10 say whether the author intended: "the deportations, overseen by the Jewish Ghetto Police,[10] were to the Treblinka death camp..." or whether the author meant: "the deportations, ignored by the Jewish Ghetto Police,[10] were to the Treblinka death camp...". Any assistance would be greatfully appreciated. Ross Fraser (talk) 02:32, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

 Done. — Those Who Helped (talk) 03:04, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 September 2021

Removed repeated word "stripped": "On arrival at Treblinka, stripped victims were stripped of their clothes and directed to one of ten chambers disguised as showers." Alexandertburke (talk) 22:38, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done Thank you. — LauritzT (talk) 12:17, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Attribution

Text copied from Marceli Godlewski to Grossaktion Warsaw. See former article's history for a list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:03, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 February 2024

In these phrases:

during the Grossaktion would
had the Grossaktion of the summer
Timeline of the Grossaktion Warsaw

Please italicise Grossaktion. Every other appearance is italicised already. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 00:31, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 01:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)