Talk:Gjon

Serbian-Albanian translation

@Antidiskriminator and Ktrimi991:
It is not a translation from Serbian. It is merely using the Albanian version of the name. Since Jovan goes back to Hebrew and is the same name, there can be no translation. Same applies in case of Pope Gjon Pali II, from Giovanni Paolo. It is not a translation of the Giovanni name, just using the Albanian version, similar to Jovan would not be the translation of Giovanni or John, and so on. Furthermore, Elsie reference is out of context. Elsie talks about John Vladimir, and gives the Albanian and Serbian versions on the name, but the topic is not about naming conventions or names interchanges. Mondiad (talk) 13:16, 19 July 2017 (UTC) Exactly, Antidiskriminator's edit contained WP:OR. Elsie says Jovan Vladimir is known in Albanian as Gjon Vladimir, however he does not state that Gjon is the Albanian translation or transliteration of Jovan or vice versa. Jovan is a common name in Albania, for example Jovan Bregu, that guy in the movie. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:26, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

@Mondiad, according to the source I presented, the name of Serbian nobleman Jovan Vladimir is transliterated as Gjon to Albanian language. There are dozens of other sources which confirm this (link).

@Ktrimi991. What you did here is wp:strawman. I did not say that in every single situation Jovan is transliterated to Albanian as Gjon. The sentence I wrote and which is removed with this diff says "It is in some cases also Albanian language transliteration of Serbian name Jovan." Your examples are WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.

Mondiad Please be so kind to revert yourself. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:48, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

How can the fact that "sometimes Jovan is translated to Gjon" be relevant? If we go for all translations, as I mentioned Giovanni->Gjon, Johannes->Gjon, Ioannis->Gjon, etc. the article will never end. Similar to Gjergj is translated to Đurađ. Per WP:UNDUE.Mondiad (talk) 16:53, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Of course it is relevant. If in some cases Gjon is result of transliteration from Serbian name Jovan, it should be clarified. Here take in consideration Saint Gjon Vladimir's Church. It is obviously very notable transliteration. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:07, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

The Monastery case could just as easily be analogy, as people prefer certain names for religious figures in many languages. In Albanian, Gjon is the most common "John" in the religious domain, not Jovan, not Jani, and also not Gjin. This is also OR of course. It's not that the name of the monastery "changed" any time recently, the Gjon Vladimir version in Albanian has been around awhile. {The case of Đurađ is a false equivalence because Jovan has been loaned into the Albanian language and nativized, just like Jani (likely < Greek Giannis, but ask Jani Vreto if his name was "Greek"). Nothing weird about that, English has from French Jack (< French Jacques, cf Medieval Albanian Zhak?) instead of Jake or James, and Charles instead of Carl.EDIT: removed as this statement was a reply to a statement I had misunderstood Also why is it relevant given that Gjon could transliterate Jovan, but also literally every other "John" name in the world in a language that's not Albanian? It would look like a massive POV push to readers, unless we actually did this in a symmetrical way, mentioning on every article like "English John could be a transliteration of Scandinavian Johan, French Jean, Spanish Juan, Greek Giannis, Albanian Gjon ..." Which would be a hideous coatrack disaster. --Yalens (talk) 16:53, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

The name of the most notable Gjon in Albania is result of transliteration from Serbian language name Jovan Will you three please be so kind to read the underlined sentence and once again think about your position? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:02, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Who exactly gets to decide who is the "most notable" Gjon in Albania? --Yalens (talk) 23:35, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Please don't bludgeon the process. The guy is recognized as a martyr and saint. That is exemptional notability. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:07, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

"the most notable Gjon" -- looks like a personal opinion. Many would disagree. Gjon is an incredibly historically common name among Albanian Christians, including very notable figures such as Gjon Buzuku. Jovan Vladimir is very important for Serbs, but people outside the Balkans have never even heard of him. I would agree that he is "the most notable Serb (or Montenegrin? Don't want to offend if you're Montenegrin either) who is named Gjon in Albanian", sure, that's less controversial to say. Furthermore, he is one case, overgeneralizing from just that is OR, as has been stated before.

Also, what's with this: [[1]]. You know very well that the part I removed was not what you replied to. I've noticed I have a habit of "overresponding", which can make talk pages hard for people later to read. In this case the part I removed was actually placed there because I had misunderstood what was said previously, which is my bad, but it meant the removed portion was actually less than useless to the discussion. I figured I'd clean up my own messes whenever I notice myself making them with my tangents. Again, nothing was modified that was anything you responded to.

Potential compromise, if you actually care that much about this tiny page -- cite only for Jovan Vladimir's name being transliterated, if and only if you have a source specifically stating that. I would accept that, but I can't speak for Ktrimi or Mondiad. --Yalens (talk) 18:11, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

You expect me to find a source for your assertion that only Jovan Vladimir's name being transliterated as Gjon? You expect me to find a source for your statement. You really deny notability of a man who is recognized as a martyr and saint and who has a church dedicated to him in Albania (Saint Gjon Vladimir's Church) which is on the list of List of Religious Cultural Monuments of Albania? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:53, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Who are you arguing against here? It doesn't seem to be me. I didn't ask you to find sources for my statements. I also didn't deny that Jovan Vladimir is notable and I never would-- what I disputed was that it's some undeniable fact that he's the "most notable" man on this page, which is what you claimed in your comment above, underlined : "The name of the most notable Gjon in Albania is result of transliteration from Serbian language name Jovan". But this is looking less and less like a content dispute, sadly :(, wish that wasn't the case. All the best, and have a nice day (sincerely, I actually mean it) --Yalens (talk) 19:12, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes you denied that Gjon Vladimir is notable. Everybody can see above that you said Jovan Vladimir is very important for Serbs, but people outside the Balkans have never even heard of him.. Now you say I also didn't deny that Jovan Vladimir is notable and I never would. When you realised it is absurd to deny notability of a saint you introduced a red herring and straw man fallacy, pretending that this discussion is about whether he is the most notable Gjon which is disupte unrelated to the content of the article. This discussion is clearly about content dispute, whether the text of the article should contain information that in some cases Gjon is also Albanian language transliteration of Serbian name Jovan. Fallacies are disruptive attempts to circumvent regular consensus building, based on arguments grounded in wikipedia policies. The only policy presented against the inclusion of above text is WP:UNDUE, which is of course, absurd taking in consideration exemptional notability of Gjon Vladimir. In the absence of the real arguments you introduced fallacies not to allow a single mention of something Serbian in the Albanian related article. Although it is connected to subject of exemptional notability and well cited. I know that nothing I write here could change your modus operandi, so this will be my last comment in this section. All the best. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:58, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

For all fairness, every man listed on this page is not well-known outside of the Balkans. Regrettable perhaps, but that's the fact. My apologies if saying that led you to believe I was questioning his notability as a whole rather than that I was questioning the statement that he was "the most notable Gjon on this page". Yes, I would never deny that he is a notable man. Sure, I agree this dispute is over though I disagree entirely with your analysis of arguments opposing yourself. All the best. --Yalens (talk) 20:20, 23 July 2017 (UTC) Also, I really didn't appreciate the not-so-implicit personal attack with regard to my "modus operandi", hopefully we can get along better in the future.

Going through this thread there are few issues. Anti wanting to add a sentence to the page: The name of the most notable Gjon in Albania is result of transliteration from Serbian language name Jovan is wp:or and wp:undue. Elsie just gives a list of names of what that particular saint is known by of which Gjon is the Albanian equivalent alongside Jovan. He does not say it is a transliteration and its important to keep with the source. Luckily for us, the world of academia has looked at the name Gjon in relation to Albania. The following is in Albert Riska (2013). “The Christian Saints in the (Micro)toponymy of Albania”. Anglisticum Journal (IJLLIS). 2. (3) [2] and is stated: (p.169): "Saint John, Shën Gjóni, apostle. This Christian name appears in Albanian in some variants, as Jon, Gjon and Jan. In toponymy: Shijon [ʃijɒn] - twice in the surroundings of Elbasan; Shinjan[ʃinjɑn] -near Delvina; while Gjon appears without the attribute Shën in the variants Gjonm[gjɒnm] and Gjorm [gjɔrm].Shën Gjíni (no related names in other languages). The name of this Saint is found in Mirditëa(Beci, 1982: 28), twice in the surroundings of Tirana and in Elbasan." The name stems from the figure Saint John the Apostle and not the local saint who is known in Serbian as St. Jovan. We can add St. Jovan to the list and state beside it that he is originally called Jovan.Resnjari (talk) 20:06, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks @Resnjari: that's actually a really useful source and probably has usefulness on the page itself, in addition to its relevance to the Jovan issue. --Yalens (talk) 20:22, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Editors can use the Riska article for many of the other Albanian name articles, covers much. Hope it assists everybody!Resnjari (talk) 20:50, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Resnjari -- any relation to the Gjonima family with the gjonm form that you know of? --Yalens (talk) 16:16, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

@Yalens:, I looked into it and came across this source on my bookshelf. In Fjalor Emrash [3] a name repository work detailing etymology and traditional/new forms by Vladimir Zoto (2005), on p.174 under the entry Gjon which is two pages long (listing within it Gjin and its variants), Joni and Jonima comes under as being variants from Gjon. Zoto notes (parts in bold as in text) "Joni, një formë e përdorur në mesjetë në viset veriore të vendit, ka dhënë trajtën Jonima, e përdorur shumë si mbiemer nga arbëreshët e Italisë në atë periudhë." So Jonima comes from Joni and both are medieval Albanian used forms of the name Gjon etc. A quick word on Zoto's book. It is good for those editors who want to create Albanian name articles on both English and Albanian wikipedia. One can get a copy from here [4] its around 446 pages and well researched. Hope it assists. Best.Resnjari (talk) 05:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

@Resnjari: course it helps lol. Thanks --Yalens (talk) 07:16, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Merge: Gjoni (surname) article into this one ?

I came across this article Gjoni (surname). Its short and another name article on Gjon. Should we move contents into this one and make that article a redirect? Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:11, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Resnjari I agree. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:22, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

 Done--Yalens (talk) 00:19, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you ! Much appreciated.Resnjari (talk) 05:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

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