Talk:Genetic history of Europe

Adams et al. (2008) unproven judgements?

The reference included in the section "Bibliography", by Adams et al, on religious intolerance and gentics in the iberian peninsula,from Am J Hum Gen is just terrible. Its title clearly indicates an aim outside the scope of a Journal on Human Genetics, and it contains many imprecissions and unproven judgements. No description of the sampling technique is included in the article, and even the ballot surveys describe how they choosed the sample in their data. From the description of "spaniards rueld by 300'000 visigoths" a negative judgement can be inferred, but the goths never ruled the spaniards, they just started acting as state powers when the Roman authority that hired them to be part of the roman army in exchange of being allowed to have shelter inside the roman empire borders,as some other peoples attacked them, when the roman authority faded goths found themselves as the only organized power,and started acting in acordance with their authorities, the romans allowed the goth's authorities to be preserved inside the roman army, and with their own rules. No imposition at all existed in this. The paper speaks about religious intolerance: goths changed their orginal religion, arrianism, to catholicism, in order not to enter in conflict with the rest of spaniards, but many times the facts linked to other religious groups arriving into Spain, some times forced,as some people of jewish orgin may have arrived to Spain forced by the romans,others as invaders, there were several cases when moslim authorities tryed to force christians to endorse moslim faith, or accept Mohammed as a prophet;some catholics become saints when they were killed because of this, and that probably is against the moslim rules, that stablish for the Islam a respect for "The people of the book", jewish and christians,the book named in this being the Bible. Some cases of jewish being blamed for religious violence existed,for example the case of "Santo Dominguito del Val", the history telling that young was crucified, and the expulsion of jewish in 1492 was founded in a supposed declaration of some of them of trying to "Put down the law of Jesus and stablisihing the rule of Moshes law"; even when the descendants of the kings that made the expulsion were ruling, many jews returned years after the expulsion to Spain, and there's no record of them being bothered again. The article uses the word "pogrom", a word of polish origin, but no records exits of violence in Spain specially focusing on jews, and if it was some, it was never worse than violence from some spaniards against other spaniards. The article in Am J Hum Gen speaks about some 20% of today's spanish males having jewish Y chromosome markers, and if it's taken into account that the same article says that at the time of expulsion, jewish were just 4% of the total population in Spain, the growth of this people from 4% in 1492 to 20% of today clearly speaks about no discrimination, at least. The authors have doubts about why the 20% is maintained all over Spain but in the island of Menorca. This island was for some time an english island, and either people of jewish ancestry moved to the british islands looking for a richer environment, or they were chased by the britons. This article in Am J Hum Gen seems containing a lot of propaganda, but from who,and with which goal ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.22.49.96 (talk • contribs) 14:47, 5 November 2011‎

I dared to clarify the headline of this by far to long-winded contribution.HJHolm (talk) 14:14, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

About İmprove to Article

should be benefit sources of in wikipedia's arcieve articles of Archaeogenetics of the Near East, DNA history of Egypt and Genetic Studies on Arabs also should be benefit sources of avaible in the wikipedia's archieve: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3474783/, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852743/, http://www.atour.com/health/docs/20000720a.html

Sock edits

I have totally reverted the inclusions of the IP sock of WorldCreaterFighter. Kind of East Asian supremacist. See:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/WorldCreaterFighter

He is the same as the IP commentary above, who tried to further vandalize the article but was reverted and reported by another user, which resulted in the protection of the page. Any help to revert his vandalism is appropriated!Whhu22 (talk) 09:39, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Molecular Genetics

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2022 and 9 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kedens2018 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Kedens2018 (talk) 00:26, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Spain: most un-European north-African Central European country?

Genetic Distances from Spain: (Fst; SNP Structure)

- France: 0.001; 1.13
- Switzerland: 0.001; 1.16
- Bulgaria: 0.002; 1.30
- Hungary: 0.002; 1.32
- CEU: 0.002; 1.34
- Southern Germany: 0.002; 1.40
- Austria: 0.002; 1.41
- Northern Italy: 0.003; 1.42
- Northern Germany: 0.003; 1.62
- Czechia: 0.003; 1.63
- Sweden: 0.004; 1.73
- Southern Italy: 0.005; 1.67
- Poland: 0.005; 1.66

Question:

Given the Wikipedia articles "Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula" and "African admixture in Europe" reminding us all of the genetic situation of the Iberians, it is certainly very surprising and counter-intuitive to see Iberians so genetically close (by Fst and SNP substructure) to Central Europeans and not at all close to southern Europeans or Mediterraneans countries.

I have been puzzled at this for some time now and I simply cannot find anything nor anyone who can explain this. How can the Iberians be at the same time so un-European from African admixture and so close to Central Europeans? A third genetic distance analysis, missing from this current article, namely Rst, was performed comparing Spain to other countries including Central European countries and Italy, and it found that Spain clusters together with Belgium, Switzerland, Austria and Germany, and away from Italy (Fig. 2 of https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342351167_The_Y-chromosomal_haplotype_and_haplogroup_distribution_of_modern_Switzerland_still_reflects_the_alpine_divide_as_a_geographical_barrier_for_human_migration - warning: very dramatic results showing Spain very far from Italy and very close to Central Europe), corroborating both the Fst and the SNP Structure results on this page, so that's 3 different genetic distance measurements not showing the impact of the Northern-African DNA in Iberians.

I cannot imagine how a Wikipedia reader can read "Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula" and "African admixture in Europe" and then this article "Genetic history of Europe" and come away not confused. How is it possible?

I literally mean that: how is it possible for Iberians to be up to 20% North African and at the same time cluster with a bunch of north-Alpine Central Europeans and far away from any southern Europeans?

How does 20% North African not make them noticeably farther from Central Europe in Fst, SNP Substructure and Rst? I appreciate the Talk page is not a Q&A but these are contradictory bits of information - I can't comprehend how at the same time Iberians can be the least European, most Northern African Europeans and also super-close to northern Alpine countries and far away from the Mediterranean.

Without further information to bridge this contradiction gap, I don't see Iberian genetics as understandable. KindSeriousMan (talk) 09:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)