Talk:Swedish-speaking population of Finland

Title change

The Swedish Assembly of Finland/Folktinget, the main, publicly financed, cross-political body of the Swedish-speaking population of Finland has finally updated their English-language site. The term "Swedish-speaking population of Finland" is being used solely atleast the English display page instead of the "Swedish-speaking Finns". However, I must emphasize that this is not just about Folktinget. "Swedish-speaking finns" is a problematic in many ways, especially in the context of international minority rights. In Finnish context we have no "Sami-speaking Finns" either. The term is also in contrast to all other wikipedia articles that cover national minorities in Europe. I don't see any downside with adopting the form used in Finnish constitution "Swedish-speaking population of Finland" (den svenskspråkiga befolkningen). "Swedish-speaking population of Finland" gives us a nice umbrella term and reflect the important issue: there's a population/befolkning in Finland who speaks Swedish, this was the biggest caveat with "Swedish-speaking Finns", since no such connotation was being conveyd with this translation, an English-speaker may confuse it to majority Finns who have mastered Swedish. Morever "Swedish-speaking population of Finland" as a term is not completely in vacuum in terms of wikipedia's naming practise towards national minorities ( see f.ex German-speaking community of Belgium). The term "Swedish-speaking Finns" is a sui generis, despite the fact that the situation of Swedish-speaking population of Finland is not sui generis by any means.

Folktinget:

"The Swedish Assembly of Finland (Folktinget) is a an organisation with the statutory task of safeguarding the Swedish language ande the interests of the Swedish-speaking population of Finland. Folktinget participates in the law-drafting process and issues statements to governmental institutions on issues concerning the Swedish-speaking population. Folktinget is a cross-political body; all parliamentary parties with activities in Swedish are members of Folktinget". http://folktinget.fi/eng/home/ Podomi (talk) 09:40, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I proceeded to change the title. This was no drastic, sudden move, but an issue that has been discussed in this page already a year ago. Some may perceive the original title-name "Finland-Swedes" as provocative, thus I find "Swedish-speaking population of Finland" to be the most neutral form. We cannot head too far off by adopting the term that closely reflects the form used in the Finnish constitution (den svenskspråkiga befolkningen)Podomi (talk) 10:11, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Podomi has been once again caught quoting improperly and distorting the picture. The Swedish Assembly of Finland repeatedly uses the term "Swedish-speaking Finn" both in their official home page and their brochures. [1] "The Swedish Assembly of Finland protects the interests of the Swedish-speaking Finns and is a forum for political discussion and co-operation. " "the Swedish Assembly regularly compiles statistical reports on the Swedish-speaking Finns". Clarifer (talk) 14:12, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

That was unncessary. Folktinget uses simultaneously "Swedish-speaking population of Finland" and "Swedish-speaking Finns". Swedish-speaking population of Finland is a term which is now solely used in Folktinget's English-language display page. Prior this they used only the expression "Swedish-speaking Finn" as we know. In other words, the "Swedish-speaking population of Finland" represent also a shift in their use of terminology. Non-political, independent Finland-Swedish NGOs use the term "Finland-Swedes" in official dialogue and reports with the Counsil of Europe. Finnish constitution and language act both uses the expression "Swedish-speaking population" (den svenskspråkiga befolkningen). Based on multiple lines of reasoning I think wikipedia's neutrality is better preserved with the title "Swedish-speaking Population of Finland". No one gets upset. Do you agree?Podomi (talk) 17:03, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary. It is important that your misconduct gets recorded. Everyone can follow the link and calculate how many times the term "Swedish-speaking Finn" appears in the communications of the Swedish Assembly. The term "Swedish-speaking population" seems to be used more or less to avoid repetition of the term "Swedish-speaking Finn". Also, You may want to read the newly published thesis by Anna Henning-Lindblom [2] on the identity issue. Some of it should be quoted in this article. Clarifer (talk) 18:05, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I really don't see how the term Swedish-speaking population could be POV. On the other hand "Swedish-speaking Finn" implies that Finland-Swedes don't constitute an ethnicity separate from the Finnish majority, which is highly debatable. Imagine if we called the Kurds in Turkey "Kurdish-speaking Turks", Russians in Latvia "Russian-speaking Letts", Hungarians in Romania "Hungarian-speaking Romanians" and so on. In these cases such terms would probably be regarded as offensive. Aaker (talk) 22:50, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

1. I believe Wikipedia isn't about "how things should be" but rather "how things are".

2. You are correct in noting that countries differ from each other regarding their ethnic composition and how these issues are addressed. Please inform Yourself on Finland's history further to find out what has resulted in the country's domestic interpretation of the situation. Right or wrong, the interpretation has been and still is that the founders of Finland (during 19th-20th century) are one people with two languages. This is what the country's current language policy is based on. This is why Finland has two official languages instead of one. Finland's situation is different e.g from that of Turkey. It is more like Ireland with Irish (Gaelic) and English as official languages.

3. I believe one problem in this issue may be linguistic confusion. People are confusing the English language "Finn" with Finland Swedish "finne". (In this context, it should be pointed out that the term "finländare" exists only in Finland Swedish and nowhere else).Clarifer (talk) 17:12, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this is the main issue here, whether the Finland-Swedes belong to the same ethnic group as the Finnic majority. I know there are different views on this issue i.e. that they are sub-group of the Finnish people, a sub-group of the Swedish people or a fully separate ethnicity. I'm not arguing that any of these three possible categorisations is more correct than the others (to some degree all three are true, depending on the context IMO), but labelling them Swedish-speaking Finns is to take a stance in this debate and NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable". Swedish-speaking population of Finland is actually an excellent title since it does not favour any side, which for example "Swedes in Finland" or "Swedish-speaking Finns" would (both these terms are used btw). Aaker (talk) 20:31, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

(Ahem. Finnic?) Well, Henning-Lindblom's thesis (see above) found out that "..a predominantly Finnish network of linguistic contacts and perceived L2 competence (Finnish) increase identification with Finnish-speakers and bilinguals. Perceived L2 competence does not subtract from identification with Swedish-speaking Finns. Thus, these minority members have multiple ethnolinguistic identities characterized by an additive rather than subtractive pattern; to varying degrees they see themselves as Swedish-speaking, bilingual and Finnish-speaking as well as nationally Finnish." The percentages are (from the thesis): ca. 70% see themselves as bilinguals or Finnish speakers and some 30% identify foremost as Swedish speakers. It is unfortunate that this article doesn't seem to represent the view of the majority of Finnish Swedophones. So if "Swedish-speaking population of Finland" is a NPOV and good then how about "the Swedish-speaking population of Sweden"? Or "the Norwegian-speaking population of Norway"? Clarifer (talk) 14:14, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

I used the ethno-linguistic term Finnic in order to avoid the ambiguous word Finnish (if this caused more confusion than it avoided I'm sorry for that). Nationally Finnish (i.e. finländare) does not mean ethnically Finnish (finne). It's obvious that most Finland Swedes identify themselves as Finnish nationals, but it would really surprise me if you could find a study where a majority of them indicated that they are ethnic Finns (i.e. finnar). Take a look at the language used in the Euromosaic study by the European Commission [3] where a clear distinction is made between Finland Swedes and ethnic Finns which in that study are called "Finns". "Swedish-speaking population of Finland" may not be perfect but it's definitely better than the alternative "Swedish-speaking Finns" due to the ambiguouity of the word "Finn". As for "the Swedish-speaking population of Sweden", it actually sounds a little less retarded than the alternative "Swedish-speaking Swedes", however such an article is quite redundant since Sweden is a mainly monolingual society. Aaker (talk) 16:04, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

'Finnic' is a similar term to 'Germanic' (it's the name for a branch of the Uralic languages with many member languages) so it has little to do here. Or are you implying that this is a discussion on the level of 'Finnic' vs. 'Germanic'? 'Finländare' only exists in Finland Swedish (usage and mindset) so approaching our discussion in the English language Wikipedia from such a standpoint is not sound. There is no equivalence to the Finland Swedish construct in any other language, not even standard Swedish, so assuming such a mindset from other people is even fairly bold. This is clearly one of the sources of confusion. There is no amiguity in the English language concerning 'Finn', it signifies a 'a native or ihabitant of Finland' (compare 'Swiss', 'Belgian', 'Canadian'). It is a similar term to e.g. Swede, Dane etc. (the specification "ETHNIC Finn", "ETHNIC Swede", "ETHNIC Dane" may signify other things.) Please read the aforementioned thesis by Henning-Lindblom. It probably represents the latest bit of information on the CURRENT percenptions of Finland's Swedophones (the cohorts comprised mostly of youth). Maybe you would be surprised! Clarifer (talk) 11:19, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

There definitely seems to be an ambiguity in the English word "Finn" since it means both a Finnish national and an ethnic Finn. The Marriam Webster on-line dictionary defines it as:

"Definition of FINN

1: a member of a people speaking Finnish or a Finnic language

2 a: a native or inhabitant of Finland

b : one who is of Finnish descent

Origin of FINN

Swedish Finne, from Old Swedish; akin to Old Norse Finnar Finns, Old English Finnas

First Known Use: before 12th century" [4]

These two different meanings roughly correspond to finnar and finländare. However, the Oxford dictionary only gives the second meaning: "a native or inhabitant of Finland or a person of Finnish descent." but explains its etymology as "originally applied more widely to denote a people of Scandinavia and NE Europe speaking a Finno-Ugric language" [5]. Thus, the original use of the word seems to be closer to the word finnar than finändare.

I also checked Nordstedt's English-Swedish dictionary which translates finländare as "Finlander, Finn" [6] and finne as Finn [7]. The same dictionary also translates finlandssvensk as "Finland-Swede" [8]. The purely English-language dictionaries do not have any openings on the Swedish speakers in Finland. So according to this Standard Swedish dictionary it actually seems more correct to translate the word Finn as finne than as finländare.

Let me once again refer to the Euromosaic study[9] where, if the word "Finn" only means citizen of Finland, sentences like: "This decrease has been caused mainly by a lower birth rate among the Finland Swedes than among the Finns and by emigration from rural areas, especially to Sweden. Immigration of Finns into previously monolingual Swedish-speaking cities has also caused a certain degree of language shift among bilingual families." wouldn't make any sense at all.

You're right that the term is a similar to e.g. Swede, Dane etc. Just like the word Swede means both "ethnic Swede" and "citizen of Sweden", the word Finn means both "ethnic Finn" and "citizen of Finland". However, we do not call the Sweden Finns, "Finnish speaking Swedes" (although they are Swedish nationals and most probably identify themselves as such). Likewise the word Russian means both "ethnic Russian" and "citizen of the Russian federation" but we don't have any opening called "Karelian-speaking Russians". The term "Swedish-speaking Finn" can even be considered offensive, see for example:[10] "While we never hear of "Sami speaking Norwegians", "Hebrew speaking Palestinians" etc., one often stumbles on the term "Swedish speaking Finns" to denote a certain group of ethnic Swedes. This is a way of denying the group their ethnic identity. Admittedly, something similar is practised in Turkey, where the Kurds are called "Mountain Turks" in official quarters."

Aaker (talk) 14:56, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Like said before, the term 'Finn' in the English language is defined in the same way as any other similar word, I.e. 'Swede', 'Norwegian', 'German'. In that sense, 'Finn' doesn't make an exception nor is it explicitly "ambiguous". All of these terms today have primary meaning as "native of land so and so", the secondary meaning is "inhabitant of land so and so" and a third may be "descendant of so and so group". There are no 'Swedelanders', no 'Norwaylanders' nor 'Germanlanders' and there sure is no 'Finlander' in the literate/official English language in any of its variants even though some may want to launch this term in the English language for some reason. The origins and the evolution in the English language of these originally ethnonyms is irrelevant to this discussion. What is relevant is the presence (in more than one ways). I believe whatever the English terminology regarding Finnish Swedophones is, it should a) be recognisable/searchable, b) in actual use/established, c) gramatically sound/consistent. (Google: "Swedish-speaking Finns" 155000, "Finland-Swedes" 33800, "Swedish-speking population of Finland" 6350).

None of Your country examples match the intergroup situation of Finland or how these issues are domestically seen (by the majority in the groups). Finland, Sweden, Russia, Norway, Israel, Palestine, Turkey etc. are the results of differing histories and ethnogenesis events. Is Kurdish an official language in Turkey? Is Sami an official language in whole of Norway? Is Finnish an official language in whole of Sweden (or Åland)? No, because the interpretation of these societies and the separate groups themselves of the situation is very different from the Finnish one. Swedish language presence in the area of current Finland is ca. 700 years old and more reminiscent of English language presence in current Ireland. Reflecting this, for better or worse, the status of Swedish in Finland is like that of English in Ireland. Finnish-speakers grant their Swedish-speaking brethren an equal (countrywide) right of mother-tongue.

The ideas of the late Carl O. Nordling (like so many similar ideas, even those of Rolf Pipping, the father of the term 'finländare') are fringe-ideas in today's Finland. I'd dare to claim that today very few of Finland's Swedish speakers would claim that they represent the same ethnic group as current Swedes do. Again I'd refer to Hemming-Lindblom's thesis on this. Clarifer (talk) 14:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

"All of these terms today have primary meaning as "native of land so and so", the secondary meaning is "inhabitant of land so and so" and a third may be "descendant of so and so group"." The cited dictionaries do not fully agree on this (see Marriam Webster: "Definition of FINN: 1. a member of a people speaking Finnish or a Finnic language) and we can not use your personal POV as a source. I also took a look at The International Webster's Comprehensive Dictionary of the English Language (1998) which actually has an opening on the word "Finlander", defined as "Finlander n. A native or naturalized inhabitant of Finland." while it defines "Finn" as "Finn n. 1 A native or inhabitant of Finland. 2 A member of a people speaking a Finnic language. [OE Finnas Finns]". So according to mainstream lexicographers like standard Swedish Nordstedts and English Webster's the term "Finlander" does exist and it has almost exactly the same meaning as its Swedish equivalent, although it has to be admitted that it's not used very much at all. (The suggested words "Swedelanders", 'Norwaylanders' and "Germanlanders" do not appear in any dictionary). I am not arguing that we should use this word (Finlander) for this very reason, it's unknown to most people, who would take it for a mistranslation. Also, I am NOT arguing that most Finland-Swedes feel that they ethnically belong to Sweden or that most of them think they belong to the same ethnic group as the Swedish people (in order to do so, I would have to make an opinion poll).

However, I am arguing that the word Finn, according to several dictionaries as well as the word's original use, indeed means someone who speaks Finnish, i.e. ethnic Finn (as well as a citizen of Finland) and I'm also arguing that you have to provide a strong evidence that most Finland-Swedes identify themselves as ethnic Finns since this claim is highly debatable. A thesis claiming the obvious that most Swedish-speakers in Finland identify themselves as Finnish nationals is not enough.

Aaker (talk) 16:52, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

The foremost dictionary in the English speaking world Oxford English Dictionary only has "native or inhabitant of Finland" and "Finlander" cannot be found. The same holds true for the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language and the Princeton WordNet 3.1. [11] The Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary seems to be out of date (or maybe a conglomerate of editions ranging from the 19th till the 21st centuries?). Would this make much sense in today's language usage: "Swede = a member of a people speaking Swedish or a Germanic language"? In fact, it is interesting to see such 19th century nomenclature STILL propagated. Nordstedts dictionary seems to be from a Swedish publisher.

The thesis doesn't claim what You suggest. The thesis has investigated (among other things) the intergroup bias among Swedish and Finnish speakers of Finland and Swedish and Finnish speakers in Sweden. I have already copy&pasted a quote from its English abstract. According to the thesis 70% of those who are commonly regarded or registered as "Swedish-speakers" in Finland consider themselves either "bilingual" or "Finnish-speakers". 30% consider themselves primarily "Swedish-speakers".

Turned the other way around, here is what the Finnish research institute of domestic languages has to say about ethnonyms (in Swedish) [12]: "Ett av problemen med ordet finlandssvensk är att efterleden svensk har två betydelser. I Sverige används svensk som adjektiv huvudsakligen om det som har med Sverige att göra: svenska flottan, det svenska landslaget, ett svenskt sjukhus, svenska kungen. Som substantiv används det på motsvarande sätt om personer från Sverige: två svenskar, en dansk och tre finländare. En undersökning för cirka tio år sedan visade att adjektivet svensk i Dagens Nyheter till 99 procent användes i den här betydelsen.

I Finland är språkbruket ett helt annat. I Hufvudstadsbladet och Vasabladet användes adjektivet svensk under motsvarande tid i 45 procent av fallen i betydelsen svenskspråkig: svenska skolor i Finland, svenska radioprogram, svenska familjer, svensk service - för att inte tala om alla namn på t.ex. skolor och organisationer som innehåller svensk. Detsamma gäller, om än inte i lika hög grad, substantivet svensk. När statistikerna talar om antalet svenskar i Helsingforsregionen eller när Hufvudstadsbladet i en rubrik meddelar att "Biljetter finns till svenskarnas Esbofest" eller att "84 svenskar vill bli polis" är det ingalunda fråga om personer från Sverige."

The Finland-Swedish Magma thinktank [13] has written on the issue: "En försvinnande liten minoritet av eleverna i huvudstadsregionen väljer att definiera sig som svenskspråkig." Examples of this kind are endless.

This article has been a constant battle between fringe and mainstream. It is unfortunate. Clarifer (talk) 19:32, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Tore Modeen, the professor of public law in the University of Helsinki (deceased in 2004), authored an article in a scientific journal called Europa Ethnica (1999) and wrote the following:

"In Finland this question (Swedish nationality) has been subjected to much discussion. The Finnish majority tries to deny the existence of a Swedish nationality. An example of this is the fact that the statutes always use the concept 'Swedish-speaking' instead of 'Swedish'". "The concept of nation has a different significance as meaning of a population group or an ethnic community, irrespectively of its organization. ( I prefer to use the concept of nationality in this connection). For instance, the Swedes of Finland, with their distinctive language and culture form a nationality which under the Finnish constitution shall enjoy equal rights with the Finnish nationality".

In the same article Tore Modeen covered the young Swedish-speakers in capital region who face the strong pressure of finnization. Clarifer would like us to believe that a school-kids of Helsinki should be used as proxy in the Finland-Swedish ethnic identity discourse. I disagree. The identity of young people does not necessarily reflect the minority/ethnic identity at older age.

I provide the evidence of a distinct Finland-Swedish ethnic identity with example of finlandssvenskarnas riksförbund i Sverige: ethnic minorities in Sweden are organized in their own, respective organizations. Finland-Swedish immigrants are organized in their own umbrella organization independent of the (Ethnic)-Finnish organization. Finlandssvenskarnas riksförbund i Sverige sought national minority status in Sweden, independent of the (ethnic) Finnish minority status. Unfortunately their quest was turned down by the Swedish state.

As Aaker pointed out the term Swedish-speaking population of Finland is excellent because it means we can just bypass the whole ethnic-identity debate by having a title which serves the function as a neutral umbrella term able to harbour the multi-faceted and heterogenous nature of the finlandssvensk population.Podomi (talk) 13:50, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Clarifier cited the Finland-Swedish think-thank Magma which observed that few student in Swedish-speaking elementary and high-school in Helsinki defined her/himself (exclusively) as Swedish-speaker. Swedish-speakers in Helsinki make about 7-8% of the Swedish-speakers in the whole country. The point which Clarifier tried to make did not really occur to me. After reading the story, it came clear that young Finland-Swedish in Helsinki define themselves essentially as finlandssvenskar, which in their definition implies bi- or multi-linguality by default, hence, with the given logic, they refuse to identity themselves with the notion "Swedish-speaker" which implies uni-linguality. In the more unilingual Swedish parts of Finland, young people define themselves as (unilingually) Swedish-speakers. I don't really understand the relevance of these observations which Clarifier pointed to the discussion at hand. Podomi (talk) 14:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Clarifier wrote: Right or wrong, the interpretation has been and still is that the founders of Finland (during 19th-20th century) are one people with two languages. This is what the country's current language policy is based on. This is why Finland has two official languages instead of one. Finland's situation is different e.g from that of Turkey. It is more like Ireland with Irish (Gaelic) and English as official languages.

The above postulation by Clarifier is partially flawed. That point of one nationality was never shared by Finland-Swedish political establishment in the Swedish People's Party of Finland (Axel Lille, Ernst von Born, etc). The Finland-Swedish view of the Finnish constitution is formulated by Tore Modeen (1999) and rests on the legacy of A.O Freudenthal, Axel Lille and Ernst von Born. This debate is elaborated in Kenneth McRea's research (1999). The "one nationality" interpretation of Finnish constitution is that of the (ethnic-) Finnish majority.

Aaker provided an excellent link by the European Comission [14]. The article offers excellent insights and includes, inter alia, the following:

"According to statistical definition Finland Swedes are those Finnish citizens having Swedish as their mother tongue. They also include the population of the Autonomous Region of Åland (the Ålänningar) who, in reality, may juridically and sociologically be considered an ethnic group apart. However, since a sizeable portion of the Finnish population is bilingual, it does not mean that only Finland Swedes speak Swedish. It is likely that close to 600,000 Finnish citizens use Swedish in their every day lives. The Swedish-speaking population of Finland lives primarily along the coast in four different areas..."

"In concluding, it can be said that Finland Swedes live under a certain, though not too strong, Finnish ethnic and linguistic pressure and, due to their demographic weakness, the mere equality of rights with the Finns does not guarantee their existence forever."--Podomi1 (talk) 06:46, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Clarifier referred to a doctoral thesis (Hemming). Again, the relevance of this thesis to the issue at hand remains somewhat mystery to me. The author of the thesis found out the the regional ethno-linguistic vitality (a share of Swedish-speakers within a given region) does not dictate identity as much as previously thought, and instead identity is more shaped by personal contacts. The linguistic competence in Finnish increased the tendency to identity as bi-or multilingual, however competence in Finnish did not reflect in weaker identity as a Finland-Swede. As said, the Finland-Swedes are not a tribal society but a heterogenous group. The name of the wikipedia article Swedish-speaking population of Finland is able to cater this heterogenous reality of Finland-Sweded very well.

"Resultaten antyder endast ett svagt samband mellan den lokala etnolingvistiska vitaliteten och den etnolingvistiska identiteten, medan ett mer finskspråkigt kontaktnätverk och högre subjektiva kunskaper i finska har samband med en starkare identifikation som två- och finskspråkig. Högre subjektiva kunskaper i finska minskar inte identifikationen som finlandssvensk. Studien visar sålunda att finlandssvenskarna har en multipel etnolingvistisk identitet som karaktäriseras av ett additivt snarare än ett subtraktivt mönster: de identifierar sig starkt som finlandssvenskar och i varierande grad samtidigt som två- och/eller finskspråkiga samt som finländare. En lägre lokal etnolingvistisk vitalitet, ett mer svenskspråkigt nätverk för språkkontakter och en stark identifikation som finlandssvensk ökar tendensen till partiskhet, medan en stark identifikation som finländare har samband med lägre partiskhet".Podomi1 (talk) 08:03, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I would also emphasize that the motivation for the title of the article is not based on one source or one doctoral thesis. The title, Swedish-speaking population of Finland, is motivated by the preponderance of evidence which suggest that out of all the options, this title serves best the function of wikipedia's principle of neutrality, NPOV.

Charlotta Hedberg (2004) discussed the Finland-Swedish identity issue through the context of immigration, in her doctoral thesis, she wrote:

"It is concluded that Finland-Swedes are over-represented in the total migrationprocess from Finland to Sweden. As such, the process is culturally embedded in the group´s ethnic identity, which causes migration both through the pratical minority situation in Finland and through ethnic affinity with Sweden".

In her study, Hedberg also discussed the taboo-laden nature of Finland-Swedes affinity with Sweden.

Hedberg, C. 2004.The Finland-Swedish wheel of migration.Identity, networks and integration 1976-2000. Geographiska regionstudier 61.87pp.Uppsala. ISBN 91-506-1788-5. --Apologies for the use of "Podomi1" -nick, I though I had lost my password for my original account for good--Podomi (talk) 13:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

"As said, the Finland-Swedes are not a tribal society but a heterogenous group." I believe this point is a key revelation by Podomi. The next logical step here could be to try and figure out what a) might be the current views of the Finnish Swedophones and b) which ideas are most common. I would place my trust towards cohort studies (even among the resented pupils although the quoted studies include those made on the youth and the general Swedophone population too) rather than the opinions by individual persons. I must say that even as it is now, the beginning of this article has improved light years from what it used to be even a year ago. However, I would dare to claim that as a whole the article still has some fairly dubious content highlighting fringe ideas. Clarifer (talk) 18:30, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

As said, I don't see anything controversial in the sources you provided (Henning-Lindblom, Magma Think-Thank, etc), especially in the light of the discussion at hand. I am beginning to think that you are unable to interprete these studies in the appropriate context. You seem to miss the point that identification in terms of "Swedish-speaking" implies strongly unilinguality in the Finland-Swedish context, especially among the youth in the capital region. However, identification as bi- or multilingual does not seem to contribute to lesser degree of identification with Finland-Swedish. Bi-or multilinguality may reflect either a) functional, learned language skills and b) bi- multilinguality by birth. Besides, if the neutral-standpoint of wikipedia is important to you, then why would even suggest that we ought to define this article solely on the basis of the views expressed by adolescent school-kids in the Swedish-speaking schools in the capital, Helsinki?

The overwhelming evidence suggest that a) Swedophones in Finland associate strogly with Finland-Swedish identity b) show an ethnic affinity with the state of Sweden. This article is not about the intra-ethnic niche-groups but about the Swedish-speaking population of Finland at large (finlandssvenskar) and aims to reflect the reality throughout the Svenskfinland (Österbotten, Ekenäs, Esbo, Åbo skärgård, etc). What are the dubious fringe ideas expressed in the article? Please, could you identify these ideas so that we could work together to make this article even better. --Podomi (talk) 06:06, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Fringe: "Two people, one country". Fringe: "Östsvenskar". Fringe: Svecomania. Fringe: Axel Olof Freudenthal. Fringe: Ida Asplund. Fringe: Unilingual Finland. Fringe: Swedish should be a minority nationality language in Finland like Finnish in Sweden or Sami languages in Finland. Fringe: Swedish shouldn't be compulsory in Finnish schools. Fringe: Fennomania. These ideas are either obsolete or exist mainly among people with right-wing tendencies and in Eastern Finland and Österbotten (and sadly Dragsvik) i.e. people with the least amount of inter-group contacts. Mainstream: "One people, two languages". Mainstream: Finland's Swedophones are a linguistic minority. Mainstream: 'svensk' in Svenskfinland or svenska skolor (in Finland) means "Swedish-SPEAKING Finland and Swedish-SPEAKING schools". Mainstream: Finland-Swedish identity plays on the level of language and culture and not ethnicity. Mainstream: Finnish Swedophones and Fennophones have more in common with each other than the former have with Swedes. I really wish that a wider Finland-Swedish audience finds this article and a more representative text results. Clarifer (talk) 15:04, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Nice that you shared your thoughts. However, I explicitly asked you to identity the fringe idea's expressed in the article. I have to double check whether Axel O. Freudenthal or Ida Asplund is even mentioned in this article. Ida Asplund was a solicitor for the Swedish anti-discrimination ombudsman and was responsible for advancing the rights of Sami-minority in Sweden. What's her relevance to this article? I hope you not trying to receive attention, it appears you are not interested in contributing to this article in a meaningful manner.Podomi (talk) 14:06, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Good to hear your opinions too. I'm sure we can all appreciate them in this article. Clarifer (talk) 16:54, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Swedish Finn?

Hmm... Swedish-Finn is redirect to this page. Then the article of Finnish people in Sweden is titled Sweden Finns. Those two seem quite alike to me. 82.141.72.104 (talk) 11:55, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Finland Swedes and Sweden

According to sources cited in the article, the number of Finland Swedes is about 290 000 people, 60 000 thousand Finland Swedes live in Sweden and around 30 000 Sweden-born people live in Finland. Are the Finland Swedes living in Sweden (and other countries) included in the 290 000 figure? What about the Swedish immigrants in Finland, are they (also?) included? If both are included, then more than 10% of the Swedish-speaking population in Finland consist of Swedish immigrants and more than 20% of the population emigrants living in Sweden. If these groups are not included, then that should also be noted. Aaker (talk) 17:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

The number of Swedish speakers, 290 000, is based on how many people living in Finland have registered themselves as Swedish speakers. This is thus a very reliable number. The statistics don't tell if all of them consider themselves being Finland Swedes. Also the number of people born i Sweden is a reliable statistical figure. However, these two pieces of statistics can't be combined, as people born is Sweden living in Finland might not be registered as Swedish speakers. It can be asumed that the majority of these 30 000 actually have a Finnish background, although they are born in Sweden. The number of Finland Swedes in Sweden is a more unreliable figure, as there is no official language based statistic done in Sweden. This number is however not included in the mentioned 290 000 persons that have registered themselves as Swedish speakers in Finland. ---Migro (talk) 16:16, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Is there any way to investigate how many of the Swedish born people that are (registered) Swedish speakers? Anyway, as it seems, a fairly large proportion of the Swedish speakers have close personal ties to Sweden. Aaker (talk) 18:25, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Making sense of the lede

At the moment, the lede gives us the following information:

• They maintain a strong identity and are alternatively seen either as a distinct subgroup of the Finnish people or as a separate ethnic group or even as a distinct nationality.

As we know that first language determines who is a member of this population, the first catergory is a non-starter. They may be an autochtonous people on Finnish territory but are otherwise no different to the ethnic Hungarians in Romania. The Finnish nation does not to my knowledge divide into subgroups and if it did, the idea that someone can form one of those groups while talking another nation's language as a first and all of this while living in your host nation with all related populations speaking the correct language is totally illogical. So the next thing is separate ethnic group and disctinct nationality. These mean the same thing. Unless it is meant by the latter that they are taking out Swedish citizenship whilst remaining residents in Finland - a status which turn would in turn be extended to anyone and not just Swedish speakers - then the rest of it simply refers to how they declare their ethnicity. The Big Hoof! (talk) 08:00, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

This may be a quite illogical stance, but it has actualky been the mainstream position in Finland for both Finnish- and Swedish-speakers. Zachrias Topelius wrote in mid 19th century, "One people, two languages", and this has remained the national ideology. Swedish is not considered a minority language but one of the two national languages with complete formal equality with Finnish. This has been discussed at some length by (Swedish-speaking) professor Max Engman in his book Kaksoiskotka ja leijona, VAPK-kustannus 1992. He explicitly compares the Germans of Sudetenland and Swedish-speaking Finns:

While Baltic countries were swept by the nationalistically-minded peasant rebellions of years 1905-06, Finland expanded its autonomy with peaceful measures to include the most democratic parliament of Europe. This development gave also its special colour to the Swedish nationalism in Finland. In comparative sense, it can be said that the Swedish-language movement which was named by Axel Lille as Den svenska samlingsrörelsen, became a success. The movement was able to organise a large part of its potential base under the pennant of finländskt patriotism without separatist goals. (Engman 1992 pp. 67-68)

The differences were also complete when it came to self-identification with the region. The Bohemian Germans identified with either local niveau, by being Egerland or Reichenberg dwellers, or generally with German nationality. They were able to think about the division of Bohemia, which was an abomination to the Czech. The Swedish-speaking Finns outside Aland Islands were absolutely self-identfying with the Finnish state. (Ibid, p.70)

Thus, the concept of "Swedish-speaking Finns" is indeed a peculiarity among European minorities. --MPorciusCato (talk) 10:14, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Silvia Modig

Why is her picture in the upper right corner? There are many many swedish speaking members of parliament, why did you include her? 128.214.129.85 (talk) 19:42, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Q concerning categorization:

Why on earth is this article categorized in Ethnic groups in Sweden?? Periegetes (talk) 14:22, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Because many Finland Swedes live in Sweden. For more info see: http://fris.nu/web/?page_id=250 Aaker (talk) 13:40, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

"Real" Swedes in Finland

Is there a chance to have a separate article for the Standard Swedish-speaking, with-no-prior-roots-in-Finland Swedish ("rikssvenskar") emigrants in Finland? This article seems to concentrate on the people who a) speak the Finland Swedish dialect, b) have their own culture, and c) have only from very distant to none roots (genetic etc.) in Sweden. Shouldn't this article atleast mention their presence in Finland somehow? And I'm referring to the very recent (post-WWII or so) emigrants--I mean there must be some of them around, right? I know I might be wrong about all this and there's only very insignificant amount of them in Finland. I hope someone knows better. 176.119.53.140 (talk) 21:27, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

@176.119.53.140: While what you are asking for is a reasonable request, there is a huge obstacle that the Finnish authorities themselves have created. There is no data on ethnicity in Finland and gathering of such information is outlawed; the native language is the only determiner here, by that I mean broadly "Finnish" or "Swedish" (excluding of course the big ol' "Other" group) with no regard for specific dialects or origins. Actually, there are many ethnic Swedes who moved to Finland as immigrants, and I'd imagine vice versa, but they are grouped together with citizens of all other EU member states as simply "residents from within EU". With the EU in full swing, open borders and no housing registry, the best estimate anyone could give you regarding a number of ethnic Swedes who are not native Finland Swedes that currently live in Finland would be a really rough "guesstimate". 141.138.26.218 (talk) 16:11, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

see here: http://www.stat.fi/static/media/uploads/tup/suoluk/kuviot/english_vrm018.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.204.102 (talk) 03:34, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

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Number of Finns

Removal [15] below was moved to Demographics of Finland which is better:

"Ca 2 million persons with roots in Finland live abroad. In 2017 ca 10 % of residents of Finland said in a enquiry that they would prefer to live abroad." Watti Renew (talk) 16:23, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

new graphic to add

http://www.stat.fi/static/media/uploads/tup/suoluk/kuviot/english_vrm018.png looks relevant as it shows Swedish Finns and Swedish swedes in Finland - in a kind of way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.204.102 (talk) 03:36, 16 February 2020 (UTC)