Talk:The Love Suicides at Sonezaki (1978 film)

Title of film in English

The title of the film is unknown (to me) in English. If this film's English-language title is found in a reliable source then it can be added, but please add a citation to a reliable source. I can't find this film on the BBFC website: [1], [2] Cinemascape usually gets the English-language title right, but they have nothing: [3]. If an English title is found, the article should be renamed to the English title and the Japanese title will become a footnote. At the moment, in the absence of an English title, the Japanese language title is the one to use. It's possible the film was never released outside Japan. I don't remember why the title doesn't have a macron, but in this case it should have had one. JoshuSasori (talk) 00:13, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

JS, no one has ever said that the "English title" of the film is different from what you say. But you keep accusing me of not reading Wikipedia guidelines, even though I read them long before you made your first edit. You are the one who did not read the guideline you claimed to be directing me to. MOS:FILM does not mention anything about foreign titles except to redirect to Wikipedia:NCF. There (specifically under Wikipedia:NCF#Examples) it clearly says that my edit is in accordance with the guideline. (See also the header of Ran (film).) I am beginning to think that your arbitrarily reverting all of my attempts to edit articles "you created" are symptoms of some kind WP:OWN issues, that you may need to work out. elvenscout742 (talk) 15:48, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) To be clear, the title literally means "The Lovers' Suicides at Sonezaki". Sonezaki is a place-name; shinjū means a lovers' suicide (Romeo and Juliet?). The play on which this film is based is well-known in Japanese literary circles both within Japan and abroad, and in English its title is usually given this way. However, this is basically irrelevant here, as Wikipedia:NCF#Examples says that we are obliged to provide an English translation for the title even if it does not have an "official" one. This title should be given in parentheses once, and not written in bold. WP:UE goes further to say that with foreign terms that are unfamiliar to general English-speaking readers, we should provide a translation; this translation should ideally be rooted in reliable sources, but if such sources are unavailable then bilingual Wikipedians are allowed to produce a translation. (I don't have Keene with me now, so it is possible his translation didn't start with "the", but this is an insignificant issue.) elvenscout742 (talk) 15:55, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

The idea of reading these documents doesn't appeal to you very much now does it. JoshuSasori (talk) 15:52, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

PLEASE LISTEN TO ME! I have never once attempted to say that this movie has an official English title. Wikipedia policy demands that we provide a gloss in parentheses and not in bold for foreign titles of films. I have now pointed this out to you three times. The documents you point to are irrelevant, as they do not have anything to do with the issue at hand. elvenscout742 (talk) 15:58, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

The title of the play in English is The Love Suicides at Sonezaki, as far as I know. JoshuSasori (talk) 15:59, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

That's absolutely fine. (Although I still think Keene might have said it my way ;) ) elvenscout742 (talk) 16:04, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Moved page to found title

I'm not used to this form of discussion and cannot see the point. Fortunately I was able to locate the English title in a reliable source. The article is now moved to where it should be and I would like to suggest that the effort put into these talking pages be spent on productive editing. Thanks. JoshuSasori (talk) 17:50, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

That is exactly what I was trying to make you do since the start. You started posting here and undermined my tweaking this article in accordance with WP:NCF#Examples, but I have only ever wanted you to accept these edits. It is perfectly fine for you to edit this article; it is perfectly fine for you to make most of the edits to the article; if the article ever becomes a GA or FA, it is perfectly fine for you to take pride in that. But it isn't okay for you to prevent other users from making constructive edits. That is why the above dispute took place. elvenscout742 (talk) 00:47, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

[4]. JoshuSasori (talk) 01:17, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

WP:OVERLINK

Please don't add links for common words like Japan and please do not use 1978 in film these are completely not acceptable in new articles and Lugnuts will be very annoyed if you make more work for him. This is partly explained at WP:OVERLINK and for the rest can you go and ask User:Lugnuts why we do not use 1978 in film any more, he can explain it. Brilliant, thanks. JoshuSasori (talk) 16:06, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I should reemphasize: I haven't been especially active in writing film articles on here since around 2006. I have changed it to what seems a bit more appropriate. But please do not blankly revert an implementation of MOS requirements just because I linked to the wrong article. elvenscout742 (talk) 16:11, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

I remembered why those are WP:EASTEREGG links. Anyway nobody uses those any more and they are gradually being removed by people like the above-mentioned Lugnuts. So thanks but no thanks. JoshuSasori (talk) 17:59, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

RfC: Should this film article contain a mention of the film's national origin and an English translation of the title?

The user who created the page apparently has WP:OWN issues, and every edit I make to the article has been reverted or severely trimmed. I tried to insert an English translation of the title in accordance with WP:NCF, and was reverted. The user insisted that the film does not have an official English title. This was never disputed, and my edit clearly did not claim that the translation was "official". When I cited the specific policy and re-reverted, I was reverted again, and the exact same argument was made. I never claimed that the translation was an "official English title". After another brief to-fro over whether the opening sentence should mention that the film is Japanese, I received a 3RR warning on my talk page. This seems unfair, since the other user has reverted me just as much. When I tried to ask him about this on his talk page, he ignored me and quoted an Elvis Presley song. I am not sure if he legitimately thinks the article should not mention that the film is Japanese or if he just considers the article to be his property and is reverting me just because, but can I get some input here? elvenscout742 (talk) 16:35, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Please everyone ignore this person. JoshuSasori (talk) 16:40, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

This is the kind of thing that makes me think JS has OWN issues. Every time I try to make an edit, he responds by quoting Elvis Presley lyrics, as though his having started this page justifies his not listening to others' legitimate input on the article. elvenscout742 (talk) 17:04, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

"Chikamatsu play"

This is not an easter egg. No one who knows who Chikamatsu was would not understand what the link is linking to. This clearly does not violate the guideline at WP:EASTEREGG. I can't help but thinking that all of this micromanaging of everything I write on any page JoshuSasori has ever edited is an assumption of bad faith. I chose to word my Chikamatsu reference in a culturally sensitive, reasonable manner. No one would write "Romeo and Juliet" is a film based on the William Shakespeare play of the same name." -- why should this be any different? elvenscout742 (talk) 05:25, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't follow this logic. Why would anyone reading this article about a film from 1979 necessarily know who Chikamatsu was? If the article is under one name, why put the link on another name? Similarly for "jidaigeki", if you want to link it to "jidaigeki" then why not write "jidaigeki romance film"? Please read WP:EASTEREGG. JoshuSasori (talk) 05:53, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Why would anyone reading this article about a film from 1979 know who Chikamatsu Monzaemon was, if they didn't know who Chikamatsu was? The film, being of the same title and based on Chikamatsu's best-known work, and far less well-known than the play. I linked to jidaigeki in order to link to the correct genre without unnecessarily altering your prose; additionally "jidaigeki romance film" is grammatically incorrect because "jidaigeki" can't be used as an adjective (jidai means "period, and geki means "drama"). I did read WP:EASTEREGG, and it says that we shouldn't include non-intuitive links to articles whose titles bear no resemblance to the words that appear in the original article: therefore, since 99.99% of the time "Chikamatsu" means the same thing as "Chikamatsu Monzaemon", and since a Japanese period film is the same as a "jidaigeki", this guideline does not apply in either case. elvenscout742 (talk) 10:05, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion

Maybe the two primary editors should refrain from reverting each other's edits, no matter how mistaken or misguided they seem. Boneyard90 (talk) 20:53, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I wrote most of the article. The other editor just makes tiny changes and then writes long messages on the talk page. JoshuSasori (talk) 00:33, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Suggested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 21:41, 29 January 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Double Suicide of Sonezaki → Sonezaki Shinjū (1978 film) – {{{2}}} elvenscout742 (talk) 04:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC) Okay, for some reason reasoning disappeared when I posted this request. Last time I use the template.

Basically, this film has never been officially released under its current title. It was originally created under the proposed new title, but later moved based on the English translation of the title mentioned in one NY Times review. WP:NCF doesn't say anything about naming articles on foreign films based on "reliable sources", and in fact the only official title is Sonezaki Shinjū. Additionally, a GBooks search for the current title indicates that while it is often used to refer to the film, it also frequently refers to the far better-known Chikamatsu play of the same name, so whether or not my proposed title is acceptable, a disambiguator such as Double Suicide of Sonezaki (film) or Double Suicide of Sonezaki (1978 film) needs to be added. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:35, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose - the proposer knows full well that the English title of release was as given. Yet another time wasting proposed move. JoshuSasori (talk) 04:56, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Not really. Unless the film has seen theatrical and/or home media release under the title Double Suicide of Sonezaki (and it hasn't), then we have to use the official title. You created the article under this official title, and only moved it later based on some guy's review in the New York Times.[5][6] While I accept that this film has been called by this name in some reliable English sources, it is not the "official" name, and the film has never been released under it. Further, even if you don't accept that the page should be moved to my proposed title, surely you agree that the article needs a disambiguator given that about half of the Google Books hits refer to the far better-known play? elvenscout742 (talk) 05:26, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you have even watched this film. I don't think you have any interest in this film. You have not contributed any substantial content to this article, or to Ugetsu, or to Reikou, or to Kindai Eiga Kyokai, or to any of the other articles subject to your endless idiotic proposed moves and worthless edits, which you do simply to provoke arguments. That is why I think you are deliberately wasting other people's time with this proposed move, and your many other counterproductive and absurd edits and discussions on talk pages. JoshuSasori (talk) 06:25, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

You are right, I have not watched this film. Nor had you watched The Hidden Fortress when you first edited it. It doesn't disqualify either of us from making edits to the article. I have seen hundreds of Japanese films, though, including a few that I doubt you have seen because they have never been subtitled or dubbed into English, or officially released outside Japan. I have contributed more than enough to other articles to demonstrate my good faith. Your recent edits to Ugetsu and numerous other article have been nothing more than disruptive bickering -- why, for instance, did you revert my changing "Akinari Ueda" to "Ueda Akinari"?[7] (I know I had accidentally made the sentence ungrammatical, but rather than introducing a style error you should have just removed "the".) elvenscout742 (talk) 07:07, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I watched "The Hidden Fortress" before Wikipedia even existed. JoshuSasori (talk) 07:25, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

If you watched Hidden Fortress before Wikipedia even existed, I must assume you were able to read at a fairly advanced level 12 years ago, meaning you must be at least around 20 years old, so please stop calling me names and act like a grown up. Anyway, your edit summary here seems to indicate that you had only watched the film up to a certain point? (I found this edit last time you were accusing me of just being a troll who had never seen a Japanese movie, in order to use my previous edit as evidence to the contrary, so please don't accuse me of "stalking" you.) elvenscout742 (talk) 07:44, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

(In case, like happened in this situation, someone I have a dispute with in the future comes back and finds the above comment and takes it out of context: I was not "making accusations" that JS was calling me names. The earliest version[8] of his above comment called me an "insane loon". When he was threatened with a block on ANI he removed the offending language. And JS, this comment is not meant as an attack against you. I have found through recent experience that if I have a dispute on Wikipedia some users will search my entire edit history and take any "evidence" of misbehaviour they can find, even ignoring context. elvenscout742 (talk) 03:57, 20 January 2013 (UTC))

• 'Oppose' WP:UE English usage established by NYT and IMDB You can even buy the DVD under the title "Double Suicide In Sonezaki", so either use "in" or "of" -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 11:18, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

IMDb is WP:USERG, and the NYT review just proves that someone somewhere calls the movie by this title. It is bordering on WP:OR to imply that this is the "official" title in the article, though. elvenscout742 (talk) 14:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - not massively fussed, but per Japan Encyclopedia - Louis Frédéric, Käthe Roth - 2002 Page 902 "Sonezaki shinju. "Double Suicide in Sonezaki." A three-act puppet play by Chikamatsu Monzaemon, premiered at the Takemoto-za in Osaka in 1703. This play, in the sewa-mono genre, ..."... for en.wp The Love Suicides at Sonezaki one would think this needs (film) after it to show that it isn't the play. And irrespective of whether some greasy guy in a film copying room wrote "of" on the reel can and it was released with "of" and six people saw it - we all know that distributors who title foreign films in English usually can barely tie their shoe laces, the only thing the current gibberish article title acheives is having surf-by native English speakers wondering "how did a guy named Sonezaki commit suicide twice??" So why not let's be clever, accurate, intelligent instead of just shovelling up sludge from the bottom of the source barrel. If we were translating this from zero using our brains we all know that it should be "..at Sonezaki" because Sonezaki is a place, and it should recognise that there's a play too. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:54, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't dislike your suggestion. It's actually a viable proposal at the moment over on Wikipedia:WikiProject Film to change WP:NCF to only use the official titles (the original ones used by the studios and filmmakers) as the titles of the articles, and apparently a bunch of articles that stick to that principle are actually recognized GAs and FAs. Therefore, producing our own translations, even for accuracy/consistency, may be completely redundant soon. On a related note, I created Sonezaki Shinjū (disambiguation) since this is not the only modern adaptation. elvenscout742 (talk) 16:34, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Well then can we change the nomination to The Love Suicides at Sonezaki (1978 film)? "at Sonezaki" +film gets enough relevant hits to this film to justify a sensible/accurate/consistent English title. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:24, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 21:48, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

---

Double Suicide of Sonezaki → The Love Suicides at Sonezaki (1978 film) – Putting "Masumura + Sonezaki" into Google Books produces some variance in magazines to translate the film, but use in books is generally consistent with Chikamatsu Monzaemon's original 1703 play The Love Suicides at Sonezaki and therefore "The Love Suicides at Sonezaki" predominates for Masumara's film too. The 1703 play is the WP:PRIMARY once a consistent title is given to the film, and "1978" is required because of The Love Suicides at Sonezaki (1981 puppet film). In ictu oculi (talk) 01:33, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• Support Same reasons as above. The page was moved unilaterally by the hound/puppetmaster JoshuSasori in order to undo a minor edit I made to the opening sentence. The current title looks ridiculous, as there is no one named Sonezaki and he didn't commit suicide twice. There are reliable sources referring to this film specifically as the proposed title, and it would bring this article in line with the main article on the play. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:15, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.