Talk:Dominik Halmoši/AfD discussion
This discussion is out of process. To nominate these pages for deletion follow the instructions here. Hut 8.5 22:42, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It seems abundantly clear that the following ten articles…
- Dominik Halmosi → Dominik Halmoši
- Jiri Hanzlik → Jiří Hanzlík
- Jan Herman → Jan Heřman
- Martin Herman → Martin Heřman
- Jan Kovar → Jan Kovář
- Patrik Petruska → Patrik Petruška
- Tomas Pitule → Tomáš Pitule
- Petr Prikryl → Petr Přikryl
- Dan Ruzicka → Dan Růžička
- Jan Stransky → Jan Stránský
…should be deleted for lack of notability.
Wikilawyering and logical machinations can produce near-endless arguments about how all ten of these articles meet our requirements for WP:Notability. But if one cuts to the chase and looks at the intent and objective underlying the policy, it is clear. As it says on WP:Notability:
 | This page in a nutshell: Wikipedia articles cover notable topics—those that have gained sufficiently significant attention by the world at large and over a period of time, and are not excluded for other reasons. We consider evidence from reliable independent sources such as published journals, books, and newspapers to gauge this attention. Notability does not directly affect the content of articles, but only whether the topic should have its own article. |
The policy cites, among other things, Wikipedia's concept of notability applies this basic standard to avoid indiscriminate inclusion of topics.
It seems clear that articles on the above ten players wouldn’t be found in a Slavic-language print encyclopedia. Clearly, articles on these ten Czech players belong only in Slavic-language hockey magazines. They have no business being in an English-language encyclopedia; just because a hockey player appears in the hockey magazines in some places on earth, does not equate to the players having received “significant attention by the world at large and over a period of time”. Wikipedia is not a sports almanac that includes any sports player, no matter how inconsequential. Greg L (talk) 18:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
!votes and reasoning edit
- Delete There must be clear and convincing evidence that these players received “significant attention by the world at large and over a period of time”. Wikipedia is not a sports almanac that includes any sports player, no matter how inconsequential. Per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, a cabal active on one of our WikiProjects can not override this bedrock principle. Greg L (talk) 18:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- We do not discount topics because sources about them may all be foreign language. If they are professional hockey players in their country, they will likely meet WP:NSPORT, and if further say there are articles about them in these foreign language magazines, then there's the likelihood these are secondary sources (without of course seeing the magazines or specific articles). Yes, for the article to go anywhere in quality on en.wiki, we need reliable translations, but just because the source is foreign means little to article inclusion. --MASEM (t) 19:05, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- No one suggested that the articles should be deleted because any RSs would be in a “foreign language”. They should be deleted because there is zero evidence they are sufficiently notable for inclusion in an encyclopedia. Please, a dose of WP:COMMONSENSE here. Editors must provide clear and convincing evidence that these players are notable when they weigh in with how all ten articles truly belong in an encyclopedia. Solid evidence of true notability please; not just a web site mentioning that they merely exist on this pale blue dot. Greg L (talk) 19:16, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Then again, I point you to WP:NSPORT. Now, granted, I have my own problems in terms of inclusion per that guideline, but that's the current consensus that pro athletes are topics to be included. You're going to be fighting against that assuming all other factors hold true. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sports fans on Wikipedia can not override exceedingly fundamental and important policies. Per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope. Greg L (talk) 19:30, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- I totally agree with you in that NSPORT does allow for far too much inclusion, and I've tried to fight NSPORT, but it's not going to happen barring a larger shift in people commenting on that guideline. (Consider that it allows for any pro player than has participated at minimum of one game as being notable...). If you try to AFD them, you will be overwhelmed with keep votes. The fact that this is a new player is also going to not work well, as they will argue you need to give time for these players to get sources to talk about them (which is what the sub-notability guidelines are supposed to do , when they work right). --MASEM (t) 19:35, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- This AfD a no-wikilawyering zone and we need to ensure it stays that way, Masem. It is not unreasonable to demand that editors who want these ten articles here provide clear evidence that they received significant attention by the world at large and over a period of time. Hockey fans on a WikiProject can’t just declare they don’t abide by such a principle because they want to turn Wikipedia into a sports almanac. Per WP:NOT too, that is impermissible. Greg L (talk) 19:50, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- But it's not the WIkiproject that is saying it (technically), it is the community-based NSPORT that has set that bar. I don't like it, but I'm a small vocal minority relative to those that have interest in sports. I've argued with that page several times to trim down, generalize, reduce, but to no avail. --MASEM (t) 20:04, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Whether it is a WikiProject or is instead NSPORT, both amount to nothing more than a local consensus, right? And that local consensus has been flouting a core principle of Wikipedia, Masem. As such, they may not override community consensus on a wider scale. Specifically, NSPORT may not flout WP:INDISCRIMINATE, which is part of our five pillars. The only reason this has persisted so long is because Wikipedia is so big and there are so many “clubs”; it is hard to find sufficient neutral & wise editors to override a cabal with nose-counts alone. That effect (local cabals) lead to our three-year-long practice of writing “256 mebibytes” rather than the “256 megabytes” the rest of the planet used. Indeed, Wikipedia is both big and odd and dumb things happen. But, after a while, they get reversed. I think the time is ripe to stop treating en.Wikipedia like it is the world’s biggest, most complete list of sports players, no matter how inconsquential they are. To accomplish this, we must insist that Wikipedia’s core principles be abided by and ensure a good admin or ‘crat is involved in closing this AfD. Like all RfCs, the admin or ‘crat should consider the strength, weight, and consistency of the arguments in determining a consensus. Greg L (talk) 20:27, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm simply going to caution: others have tried in more dramatic fashion to change the approach to sports and failed. I think it should change too (I think the GNG should be sufficient for most sports players, with the understanding that the type of reliable sources will change depending on the sport), but the sports culture clique will not bulge and unless you get a major dispute resolution approach in place, (ArbCom won't get involved from past arguments), we're stuck with that. The only think I've tried to do is chip away at the fact that sub-notability guidelines like NSPORT are temporarily and presumed assurances of notability, with the anticipation that secondary coverage will be found for them. I personally think that if you take these to AFD as you're doing, they will be snow kept, and you yourself will be attacked for countering that. That's why I focus my efforts at NSPORT's talk page to try to change that (which is one voice among hundreds and not going to happen). --MASEM (t) 20:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Whether it is a WikiProject or is instead NSPORT, both amount to nothing more than a local consensus, right? And that local consensus has been flouting a core principle of Wikipedia, Masem. As such, they may not override community consensus on a wider scale. Specifically, NSPORT may not flout WP:INDISCRIMINATE, which is part of our five pillars. The only reason this has persisted so long is because Wikipedia is so big and there are so many “clubs”; it is hard to find sufficient neutral & wise editors to override a cabal with nose-counts alone. That effect (local cabals) lead to our three-year-long practice of writing “256 mebibytes” rather than the “256 megabytes” the rest of the planet used. Indeed, Wikipedia is both big and odd and dumb things happen. But, after a while, they get reversed. I think the time is ripe to stop treating en.Wikipedia like it is the world’s biggest, most complete list of sports players, no matter how inconsquential they are. To accomplish this, we must insist that Wikipedia’s core principles be abided by and ensure a good admin or ‘crat is involved in closing this AfD. Like all RfCs, the admin or ‘crat should consider the strength, weight, and consistency of the arguments in determining a consensus. Greg L (talk) 20:27, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- But it's not the WIkiproject that is saying it (technically), it is the community-based NSPORT that has set that bar. I don't like it, but I'm a small vocal minority relative to those that have interest in sports. I've argued with that page several times to trim down, generalize, reduce, but to no avail. --MASEM (t) 20:04, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- This AfD a no-wikilawyering zone and we need to ensure it stays that way, Masem. It is not unreasonable to demand that editors who want these ten articles here provide clear evidence that they received significant attention by the world at large and over a period of time. Hockey fans on a WikiProject can’t just declare they don’t abide by such a principle because they want to turn Wikipedia into a sports almanac. Per WP:NOT too, that is impermissible. Greg L (talk) 19:50, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- I totally agree with you in that NSPORT does allow for far too much inclusion, and I've tried to fight NSPORT, but it's not going to happen barring a larger shift in people commenting on that guideline. (Consider that it allows for any pro player than has participated at minimum of one game as being notable...). If you try to AFD them, you will be overwhelmed with keep votes. The fact that this is a new player is also going to not work well, as they will argue you need to give time for these players to get sources to talk about them (which is what the sub-notability guidelines are supposed to do , when they work right). --MASEM (t) 19:35, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sports fans on Wikipedia can not override exceedingly fundamental and important policies. Per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope. Greg L (talk) 19:30, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Then again, I point you to WP:NSPORT. Now, granted, I have my own problems in terms of inclusion per that guideline, but that's the current consensus that pro athletes are topics to be included. You're going to be fighting against that assuming all other factors hold true. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- No one suggested that the articles should be deleted because any RSs would be in a “foreign language”. They should be deleted because there is zero evidence they are sufficiently notable for inclusion in an encyclopedia. Please, a dose of WP:COMMONSENSE here. Editors must provide clear and convincing evidence that these players are notable when they weigh in with how all ten articles truly belong in an encyclopedia. Solid evidence of true notability please; not just a web site mentioning that they merely exist on this pale blue dot. Greg L (talk) 19:16, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Why are you even having this discussion here? WP:AFD is the proper venue for discussing whether articles should be deleted. See the instructions on how to WP:BUNDLE the ten nominations together. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:36, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- I added it (here) to the AfD deletion log. As I wrote there, whereas I might be a reasonably experienced wikipedian, I am a novice on AfDs. Beyond adding it to the deletion log, I am at a loss for what else to do. Can you help there, WhatamIdoing? Greg L (talk) 19:41, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- It's completely fair to see if there's a potential for deletion prior to AFD; AFD should only be evoked if you believe the only solution is deletion. I'm cautioning here that while I would agree that these are not topics for en.wiki, the AFD is doomed to failure due to the pile-on that it will get due to the support NSPORT has. --MASEM (t) 20:28, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Don’t worry about “pile-on”, Masem. According to Consensus-building by soliciting outside opinions, Consensus is ultimately determined by the quality of the arguments given for and against an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy, not by a simple counted majority. Greg L (talk) 20:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose bringing this to AFD WP:NHOCKEY specifically states that ice hockey players are notable if they have "played one or more games in an existing or defunct top professional league such as the National Hockey League, World Hockey Association, Elitserien, SM-liiga, or Kontinental Hockey League". May I also point out that WP:NSPORT and WP:Notability are both notability guidelines, neither of them take preference over the other so only one requirement must be met. The fact that these players clearly meet the requirements means that any AFD would probably be speedy-kept. Ryan Vesey Review me! 21:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Furthermore, this needs to stop being referred to as an AFD. It is not an AFD and a deletion decision cannot be drawn from this discussion. If it was an AFD it would be taking place on a specific AFD page and there would be a message advertising the AFD on the pages of all articles involved. Without going through the proper steps the community cannot come to consensus because many members of the community would be unaware that discussion is in progress. If you want to take this to AFD and you aren't sure how, use Twinkle. Ryan Vesey Review me! 21:37, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
FacepalmThis is still not an AFD discussion Ryan Vesey Review me! 21:41, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Please refer to WP:BUNDLE and WP:AFDHOWTO. Ryan Vesey Review me! 21:42, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Well, just pardon me all over the place, Ryan, for pointing out that your reasoning violates Wikipedia’s core policies. And, since we are discussing an AfD, we are discussing an AfD. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. Over a time span of 14 hours, the same editor created ten near-identical articles on ten hockey players and the exact same issue affects all ten. There is zero point repeating the same discussion ten times on ten different pages. Now that this discussion resides on a central transcluded page, it can be transcluded to all ten articles; we’re in the processes of adding the various AfD tags to all ten articles now. Patience please. And please dismount from your high horse; your “facepalm” icon, ∆ edit here, is arrogant in the extreme and is high theater intended to paint yourself as someone who doesn’t suffer fools easily. And…
Remember, this started with an RfC on the talk page of a single player, where the subject of the RfC was to affect ten articles. No one seemed to have a problem with that so long as it satisfied the needs of a cabal of sports lovers who want to turn Wikipedia into a gazette containing all sports trivia known on this pale blue dot. Now that it has become a discussion on just AfD’ing all ten articles, we have to go cross a few Ts so the sports crowd doesn’t have a forehead hemorrhage while we try to get some order here. I want to ensure that everyone is afforded an opportunity to weigh in on this issue just as much as you do. Greg L (talk) 22:21, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Delete – It seems clear that these articles fail to meet the necessary level of notability for their own WP articles; this is particularly true in the case of these individuals who wouldn't exist on the cs.WP except for the fact that the league involved is substantial in the small regional Czech market and in the regional Czech Wikipedia. For an encyclopedia of en.WP's global scope, the players in this small regional market (fifth ranked league in the second tier IIHF) don't qualify as even remotely notable; although perhaps someday one or two of them might become so. But, while I fully agree with you that these minor hockey players do not have sufficient notability to justify their own articles on en.WP and should be deleted, it also seems apparent from some of the previous comments that any failure to follow bureaucratic process to the letter (despite the fact that Wikipedia is not a Bureaucracy!) will unfortunately distract the focus from deleting these articles which should not exist, I hope you'll therefore make the effort to discover and follow the long and unnecessarily overly complex steps to begin the process to have these articles deleted. — Who R you? Talk 03:50, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT: No one needs to have a vote in order to decide whether to take articles to AfD. Any non-IP can do so, wholly on his own initiative, whether anyone else likes it or not. If you think any or all of these articles fail of notability, take them to AfD. If you don't, then vote Keep at AfD. It's pretty simple. Ravenswing 06:59, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
→Return to Talk:Dominik Halmosi
- Comment All the players definitely meet the notability requirements, as they played one or more games in an existing or defunct top professional league, see WP:NHOCKEY. Moreover, there is a potential to expand all of the articles and create a good encyclopedic information contributing to our coverage of the ice hockey topics. @Greg L: And, since we are discussing an AfD, we are discussing an AfD. No. This is not a standard and transparent AfD procedure, but a hidden forum open only to a handful of editors. Of course, you can create the AfD, but I can't recommend that, as the articles would be in my opinion speedily kept. Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 11:56, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: I'll repost something I put on that abortive AfD GregL attempted to file: "If you want to seek consensus to overturn notability criteria, that is properly done on the talk pages of those criteria; AfD is an improper venue to do so, and can only be judged by the black-letter rules in force at the time." It's too bad that the NSPORT/NHOCKEY criteria aren't to GregL's liking, but assuredly there are factions displeased with every subordinate notability criteria in force on Wikipedia. Were consensus with their POVs, the criteria would be written to reflect that. In his rush to claim that tiny cabals are foisting extremist POVs on Wikipedia, GregL has failed to demonstrate one important fact: where are the horde of (presumably) "more reasonable" people who (presumably) oppose these POVs? They seem to be nowhere in evidence. Ravenswing 14:23, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- Keep all All these players are notable, they have played in a top level ice hockey league, in the Czech Extraliga. They meet criterion 1 of WP:NHOCKEY. Just because these players play in Europe in a league that gets less coverage in North America, does not mean they are less notable than North American players playing at a similar level. The articles are stubs, but looking at past articles on Euro players, in due to time, someone (possibly even me) will expand these articles with more details, statistics, and refs.--Hockeyben (talk) 14:56, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: Out of process deletion nomination. Should be moved to WP:AfD. Dolovis (talk) 15:39, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed, please nominate at WP:AfD. Discussion here will achieve nothing. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:26, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.