Talk:MF Doom

MF DOOM wasn't born on July 13

He was actually born on January 9, 1971. There might be confusion because MF DOOM often wore a mask inspired by the Marvel Comics character Doctor Doom, who shares a birthdate of July 13. However, his actual birthdate is January 9. 93.44.121.205 (talk) 09:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

You might be correct, but Wikipedia is written based on what reliable sources say. See Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 15:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Suggestion: move page to “MF DOOM”

I believe that this is the consensus, just wanted to allow discussion. Criedley (talk) 14:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Read MOS:BIOEXCEPT Criedley (talk) 14:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

That is not the consensus and you're being disruptive. Please read the FAQ and give it a rest. Popcornfud (talk) 14:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

It is consensus and they are not being disruptive, you are the only person who doesn't want to capitalize his stage name and you're being ornery about it. ReddestVelvet (talk) 14:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

The MOS section referenced in the FAQ is not applicable to the styling of names in every instance, see MOS:BIOEXCEPT. Contradiction =/= discussion. There have been no valid arguments in favor of the way you seem to prefer it styled. Criedley (talk) 15:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

RfC on name styling

Should the stage name of an artist be styled in all caps if that is the way the artist explicitly wishes it to be styled, and that is how it is most often styled in sources? I.e. should "MF Doom" should be styled as "MF DOOM" per ?

Example of source containing the correct styling: https://web.archive.org/web/20240624134441/https://www.npr.org/2021/01/01/952519277/mf-doom-enigmatic-rapper-and-producer-dead-at-49 Criedley (talk) 14:59, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No. Wikipedia has its own manual of style, and does not write things in BLOCK CAPS. See MOS:ALLCAPS. This has been discussed to death on this talk page for years. See the FAQ on this talk page. Popcornfud (talk) 15:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I beleive you are misunderstanding that section of the MOS. This is about how his stage name, is factually styled, not a string of letters being arbitrarily capitalized. See MOS:BIOEXCEPT Criedley (talk) 15:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

The MOS literally says it should be treated as a self published name change, and should be styled accordingly. Criedley (talk) 15:14, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No, MOS:BIOEXCEPT says we may make an exception when an overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that exceptional style. The majority of reliable sources use lowercase. This is in the FAQ. Popcornfud (talk) 15:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

That is simply a false statement, anyone can do a quick google search and see how it is styled the overwhelming majority of the time. For instance:

https://web.archive.org/web/20240624134441/https://www.npr.org/2021/01/01/952519277/mf-doom-enigmatic-rapper-and-producer-dead-at-49

And the purpose of this request for comment was to bring bickering on the talk page to a halt. Criedley (talk) 15:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I know it's stated in the FAQ but where is the proof or source(s) which show that the majority of reliable secondary sources use lowercase? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:39, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Nevermind, I see sources provided in another comment and a shallow search of JSTOR shows much use of "MF Doom".[1] This RfC should likely be closed for failing to comply with WP:RFCBEFORE. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:45, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

• No. Wikipedia's usual house style is to reduce all caps to lower case; see MOS:ALLCAPS. An overwhelming majority of sources using all caps for Dumile would be required to locally overrule the house style guide. Lower case sources such as Icons of the American Comic Book, Contemporary Musicians: Profiles of the People in Music, and Who You Think I Am?: Masks in Pop Music would have to be counterbalanced by many more sources in all caps. A simple majority of all caps sources is not "overwhelming", so folks who want all caps will have quite a task ahead of them, listing every all caps source against the lower case ones to prove their case by showing overwhelming numbers. Binksternet (talk) 15:39, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

  Its okay to disagree! Thats what the dispute resolution process is for. Hopefully we can get some outside input on this. Criedley (talk) 15:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

  The first source you listed has nothing to do with MF DOOM. Are you familiar with the subject of this article? It is about the rap artist MF DOOM, not the supervillain Dr Doom. The second source you listed makes no mention of MF DOOM whatsoever. It increasingly seems you are not acting in good faith and are just trying to "win" this dispute. Criedley (talk) 16:00, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

  Ironic, considering that's the only comment by the user on this page. Meanwhile, you bludgeoned this talk page today with 22 edits (so far). AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 16:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No, not seeing that it clears the overwhelming majority of reliable sources of MOS:BIOEXCEPT. The online music press certainly uses "MF DOOM" a lot, but in-depth news articles mostly seem to favour "MF Doom". Belbury (talk) 17:52, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Capitalization of MF DOOM's name by various sources

Link to subpage (Edit list)

MOS:BIOEXCEPT tells us that unusual titling requires an overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that exceptional style. In order to keep a reliable record of sources which title DOOM's name as "MF Doom" and "MF DOOM", I (User:Howardcorn33) have created this table which reviews reliable sources with links attached. In order to only rely on recent reliable sources, I have chosen sources published after 2020. It is possible that in the future, the style of reliable sources will become overwhelmingly "MF DOOM." This table may therefore be updated as necessary by any user with new reliable publications so that we may be certain of the correct style.

Preferred style	Medium	Year	Link
MF DOOM	Academic journal	2022	[2]
MF DOOM	Academic journal	2023	[3]
MF DOOM	Literary magazine	2021	[4]
MF Doom	Academic journal	2023	[5]
MF Doom	Book	2024	[6]
MF DOOM	Academic journal	2021	[7]
MF Doom	Book	2024	[8]
MF Doom	Academic journal	2022	[9]
MF Doom	Academic journal	2020	[10]
MF Doom	Academic journal	2022	[11]
MF Doom	Book	2023	[12]
MF DOOM	Book	2023	[13]
MF Doom	Book	2023	[14]
MF Doom	Book	2021	[15]
MF Doom	Book	2024	[16]
MF Doom	Book	2020	[17]
MF Doom	Book	2023	[18]
MF Doom	Book	2022	[19]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2021	[20]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2024	[21]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2024	[22]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2024	[23]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2024	[24]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2023	[25]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2024	[26]
MF Doom	Entertainment news	2023	[27]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2023	(same website) [28]
MF Doom	General news	2023	[29]
MF DOOM	General news	2023	[30]
MF Doom	General news	2023	[31]
MF Doom	General news	2021	[32]
MF DOOM	Lifestyle news	2023	[33]
MF Doom	General news	2023	[34]
MF DOOM	General news	2021	[35]
MF Doom	General news	2021	[36]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2021	[37]
MF DOOM	General news	2023	[38]
MF Doom	General news	2023	(same website) [39]

―Howard • 🌽³³ 13:48, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

These are cherry-picked sources, avoiding the sources which do not capitalize the name, for instance The New York Times from January 2021, and The Guardian from December 2020. And why start at 2020 when there are good sources going back to 2010, showing the name in lower case?[40] If you want to have any leverage here, you must list all the sources and indicate whether they show all caps, lower case, or a combination of the two styles. That way people can plainly see the balance. Binksternet (talk) 14:26, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

like i said, you are free to add more as any user can. I did not intend to cherry-pick sources, but only choose recent sources so that Wikipedia may be up-to-date with contemporary sources. it is impossible to list every source, I don't think any individual can do that. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 14:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

also I don't see why I should include The Guardian and NYT in my list since they are already in the list. it makes no sense to include the same website twice if its from the same source, unless if that website contains two styles of the name. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 18:14, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I think having a list like this is a good idea, and it will help in future (inevitable) debates about the capitalization. If we get consensus that this list is useful then it would be good to add it to the FAQ.

I agree that there's no need to list the same sources twice, except in cases sources use both styles (I added a Rolling Stone example there), unless we use Binksternet's idea of just saying whether they use one style or both. It would also be useful to include the names of the sources in the table.

I agree with Binksternet that starting at 2020 seems arbitrary to me — we don't generally prefer newer or older sources unless we have a good reason to think an older source is out of date or whatever. Popcornfud (talk) 20:11, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

The reason I have restricted the list to recent sources is because I believe we should be up-to-date with the style of the newer sources. This isn't a question of factual reliability but stylistic modernity, Wikipedia should merely update to what the current academic/media consensus at the moment, so that we don't appear outdated. the year 2020 is arbitrary, true, but that's only because I had to pick a year to determine which sources are recent. We can pick a different year, either a few years before or ahead. But to count all years in determining our style would bias our style to older sources even if more recent sources decide to overwhelmingly use a different style. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 20:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

adding this to the FAQ could also be useful as currently people are confused by "the majority use lowercase" and come to the talkpage because they dont understand that the majority of sources don't do all caps without being presented with evidence. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 20:34, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

But to count all years in determining our style would bias our style to older sources

I think that's a feature of Wikipedia sourcing, not a bug. Popcornfud (talk) 20:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Hm. I've been reading and according to WP:NAMECHANGE, "recent sources" indicate when the name was actually changed. I'm pretty sure MF DOOM began specifying his name to be spelled in All Caps in 2004, so it appears we should account for all sources written from Feb. 2004 onwards instead of 2020. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 20:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)