Talk:List of selective high schools in New South Wales

Correction

Folks, if you are going to paraphrase one of the NSW Department of Education and Training web pages couldn't you at least copy accurately? Bossley Park High School has never been and certainly is not now a selective high school.Detexpert (talk) 23:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Would it be better to call this a list of selective public/state schools? I know that "selective high school" usually refers to public schools when used in NSW, but the literal meaning of the phrase is broader so I feel it might be confusing. JPD [[User talk:JPD|(talk)]] 09:48, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

No. Selective high school means that you have to sit a test to get in. 59.86.177.234 (talk) 03:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I think that makes my point... JPD (talk) 07:50, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

My thoughts

• I have had this information sitting in my sandbox since 15 August and was about to bring it out to the main space when Enochlau beat me to it :)
• I think the template looks great!!
• I have been using this table on List of schools in New South Wales, tell me what you think.
• There was already an article on Smith's Hill High School so I have redirected the one Enochlau created
• There needs to be a better introduction on what selective high schools are and the system works in NSW.
• We somehow need to find out the missing founding years

Cheers -- Ianblair23 (talk) 05:59, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Do you agree that the title and the template should make it clear that only state schools are included, though? It's possible that most people from NSW would understand this, but there will be readers from all over the world. JPD 12:15, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

No I don't believe so. If they are truly confused, they can click through and read the article, which should explain that they are government schools. I think calling it "state selective" is overkill. Enochlau 13:55, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Yay! I beat you to it :P The table looks much better than a list - I like it. If we add more info on selective schools, do you think we should create an article called New South Wales selective high school, or just plonk at the top of this page? Enochlau 13:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind it at the top of the page, but a separate article is probably more correct. By the way, I have less of a problem with "New South Wales selective high schools" - maybe because it gives the term its context. 100% of the people I asked in my office understand "selective high school" to mean any school with selection criteria, especially private schools. The template is not just confusing - it is misleading.

An another note, do you think we could add to the table something to distinguish between the ~18 fully selective schools and the ~13 with selective classes? JPD 14:55, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeh, I was thinking about adding a couple of other columns as well. Your suggestion is a good idea - but do we have the info? I was also thinking of marking which ones are coed/single sex. Enochlau 22:31, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I was also thinking that we could list when each school became an selective school. I think we can put enough info together for its own article, with a good summary at the top of this page. What we need is a good history section. How did selective schools come about. Which school was the first selective school? Has there been any school that was a selective school and now is not? Also do other states have selective schools? Lets see what we can come up with. Cheers -- Ianblair23 (talk) 22:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Replying to JPD, I don't quite see the difference between "selective high schools in New South Wales" and "New South Wales selective high schools" :) Also, you're in London, so asking about what a "selective school" means to Londoners doesn't really make sense; after all, isn't England where "public" schools are in fact private? Enochlau 23:34, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree that there isn't much difference. However, "selective high schools in New South Wales" to me suggests a list of things which fits a generic definition of a "selective high school" and are in New South Wales, not a list of things that are called "selective high schools" in New South Wales. "New South Wales selective high schools" instinctively feels marginally better, because it is less suggestive that the term is a generic one, and they are after all, NSW government schools.

Yes, in England public school tends to mean private schools, with a meaning only used in NSW for GPS Schools. I don't see why you think asking Londoners doesn't make sense, because the concept of a selective schools exists here and the term definitely made sense to them - it just had a different meaning to the one we are used to. Since the audience is worldwide, we need to consider how people such as Londoners would understand it. JPD 11:10, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

This discussion has raised interesting questions, and I've taken a look to see what we should do. Wikipedia:Naming conventions suggests use common names (i.e. what we refer to it usually, in this case selective as opposed to selective state) but I'm not sure whether this rule necessarily applies. We might have to drop a note on the naming conventions talk page and ask people most familiar with that kind of work about it.

Although it's an international encyclopedia, let's think about what someone who's looking up this topic would expect it to be called. If the person is from NSW, then all is good. If the person is not from NSW, then if they about our selective schools, then they would expect it to be here; otherwise, they would probably browse here from another page (which reminds me - we should link this from some NSW education article, currently only linked from template and category page). But I did a quick search and I found Independent school (UK), which suggests to me that we're naming this thing wrong - perhaps Selective school (New South Wales)? Enochlau 22:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm reasonably happy with the argument that the title should use the common name, so that people will find it where they expect. I'm more concerned about the template, which people will come across on the article page, which they may have reached by all sorts of means. Selective school (New South Wales) seems a good name for an article about the schools (possibly Selective high school?). Speaking of that, I will go and clean up a bit the article someone has created at Selective school. JPD 18:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

How about this: we put in brackets "(state)" onto the template, while leaving "state" out of the title of the article? As for selective school, is this term actually used anywhere else other than NSW? Enochlau 01:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd be happy with that, or with NSW selective high schools. "Selective school" would be understood to have meaning in other places, but I don't know if it's used as an official or common term outside NSW. Considering that it's the sort of thing that's managed locally in many countries, it would be pretty hard to check, too. JPD 10:09, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that there are selective schools in the State of Victoria. JSIN 01:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Is that what they're called though? "Selective schools"? enochlau (talk) 05:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I've seen the term being used in the media, like this http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/04/1096871811720.html?from=storylhs

JSIN 12:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Creative and performing arts high schools in New South Wales

Do you have an issues with my renaming this List of creative and performing arts high schools in New South Wales? Chanlord 04:25, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• There's a "list" at the category page. The creative and performing arts high schools in New South Wales is more explanatory. Of course, both contain the same information. Perhaps just delete the "List of" page, since it's just a redirect. Joestella 04:32, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
• That's the category listing, not a list. List of creative and performing arts high schools in New South Wales would be the proper way to title the article as that's what it is. This is according to Wikipedian naming conventions. It's ok to have a seperate list page as it can give overarching explainations about the type of school they are -- Chanlord 04:37, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
• There is a manually-entered list and explanation at Creative_and_performing_arts_high_schools_in_New_South_Wales. There is a category listing at [[Category:Creative_and_performing_arts_high_schools_in_New_South_Wales], to which I have added the same explanatory text. I see no purpose in adding that there's a list on the page to the latter entry's title, since there is more to the article than the list. With only six entries, an embedded list is more appropriate than a stand-alone list. Joestella 04:48, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
• Lists have introductions too. The article wouldn't be changing at all. It would be just be called "List of creative and performing arts high schools in New South Wales". A redirect would be put on "Creative and performing arts high schools in New South Wales". All I'm asking is to reverse the current redirect. It just makes it more consistent with other lists in the parent category, like List of schools in New South Wales and List of selective high schools in New South Wales -- Chanlord 04:58, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
• List of schools in New South Wales does not have an introduction. I mean, really, it doesn't matter. But the point of Creative and performing arts high schools in New South Wales is not the list so much as the explanation. Joestella 05:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
• Lists can have explainations look at List of selective high schools in New South Wales -- Chanlord 05:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
• I know that. But this example shows that isn't an issue of consistency. Think about it from a user perspective: they may want to know what constitutes a Creative/PA school in NSW - so they go [[Creative_and_performing_arts_high_schools_in_New_South_Wales here]. They may want to find out more about specific Creative/PA high schools, so they go [[Category:Creative_and_performing_arts_high_schools_in_New_South_Wales here]. In a much larger category, like say "schools in NSW", a list makes sense because there aren't articles for all schools, so a category listing would be insufficient as a list. That is not the case here. It's only six schools. Joestella 09:22, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• That's why they have redirects. And Categories are meant to give a list of articles similarly related. There can be a redirect at the current page, but for naming purposes a "List of creative and performing arts in New South Wales" is more uniform. It's just two little words. Chanlord 12:12, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• Both titles exist in the database, I take it you want the one called "list of" to appear on the "Schools in NSW" page. But even then, this "list of" link would appear way below the "Creative and performing arts high schools in New South Wales" link under the "Subcategories" heading. It would be redundant. On the other hand, a link to "Creative and performing arts high schools in New South Wales" set inamongst the names of schools would suggest to the user that information about the general nature of these schools is available in the way that "List of Creative and performing arts high schools in New South Wales" does not. Joestella 12:51, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• Copy and pasted discussion from Joestella's talk page. We'll continue the discussion here. Chanlord 23:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

This crossed my mind when I was creating List of selective high schools in New South Wales. I really don't think there's any advantage or disadvantage with having "List of" at the front; I settled on having it there for the sake of consistency. If you have a redirect from the title without the "List of" people will still be able to find your article, so that's not really a problem. I'd suggest that the title contain the words "List of" at the front. That is, unless you can write an entire encyclopedia article on this topic; without the list there, it'll be a mere stub; it's the list that currently gives the page its purpose. I'd also suggest copying the dates of foundation and location from the List of schools in New South Wales article like we've done on the selective schools page. That gives the page some utility over a simple category page. enochlau (talk) 23:24, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I have nothing more to add, but I'm yet to be convinced. Joestella 00:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

• It's just two words and it makes it more uniform. Take it up with the Wikipolicy list people. Moving page to List of creative and performing arts high schools in New South Wales and redirecting Creative and performing arts high schools in New South Wales to it Chanlord 00:51, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
• I'm not going to take it up with the Wikipolicy list people. Accepting their jurisdiction would make the appeal a foregone conclusion. :) I'd ask that if you think foundation dates help your case for moving the page, you actually put the effort in and do it. Joestella 00:48, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Sure thing. I'll do it when I get home tonight (at work atm). enochlau (talk) 04:54, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Done. enochlau (talk) 11:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Preparation resources

Tuitions seem like an extremely expensive way to prepare for these exams in NSW. I have come across one or maybe two web-based resources for preparation, but am wondering if there are others that I am not aware of.

One very nice web-site that comes to mind is www.selectivetests.com.au

The pricing seems very reasonable given the duration of membership (upto one year for complete membership cost $165 only). I'd be interested to see if anyone knows of other such resources.

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