Talk:Chinese Taipei national baseball team

Major Leaguers

It's impossible for the 2004 Olympic team to have included major leaguers. Major league teams did not let their players go to Athens.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.92.19.73 (talk • contribs) 03:25, 2 March 2006.

Response + Comment

Response to first thing: This is the WBC roster. Also, is it neccessary to put their names in Chinese/—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Smartyshoe (talk • contribs) 01:42, 3 March 2006.

Japanese Professional Baseball League

The Japanese Professional Baseball League isn't called "JPB".It's called "NPB"(Nippon Professional Baseball).—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.117.195.196 (talk • contribs) 17:43, 19 June 2006.

Rename

I think the name of the article should not have been changed into Taiwan, but should still be Chinese Taipei as that is the official name used in international sports competitions. All sports related articles considering Taiwan exist on Wikipedia as Chinese Taipei (click the link to find out why). I suggest to rename it back to what it was. SportsAddicted | discuss 22:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree because this article includes time in which the term Chinese Taipei was not used. I believe there should be a section added to include a description of the fact that the country has competed under three names since 1949, but due to the presence of historical information predating the use of Chinese Taipei, I agree with the name change, though it is not I who made it. ludahai 魯大海 22:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

OK you convinced me, but it should become more clear inside the article like you just did for me then ;) SportsAddicted | discuss 23:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this article should use the official name which is Chinese Taipei. All of other names could be mention in the "name controversy" section. It is more consistent and NPOV with other international sports competitions. Also note that the main logo in the page also seems to use the official name and it contradicts the article to use "Taiwan" instead of "Chinese Taipei". Most of the other sports related articles about Taiwan here such as the Olympics articles also uses the name "Chinese Taipei" instead of "Taiwan" or "Republic of China". LionheartX

I have moved this page back to Taiwan National Baseball Team because I believe that we should have consensus before making moves like this, and I am not sure that we do. (I personally believe that it should be moved to the official name, but my personal belief is less important than consensus.) Please, what do people think? Should we use the official name, which does seem to be the most commonly used name, at least according to Google? Remember that there will still be a redirect from Taiwan National Baseball Team. Regards, Ben Aveling 18:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe that Taiwan national baseball team is better, because it is the common name. Plus, there already is an article of Chinese Taipei, for people that are interested in that name.--Jerrypp772000 22:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Google agrees that TNBT is more common.

• "Taiwan national baseball team" gives 448 Google hits.
• "Chinese Taipei National Baseball team" gives 208.

Actually, I'm surprised how low both counts are. Perhaps it just reflects the fact that most references to them are not in English? On the one hand, CTNB is the official term, on the other hand common usage seems to be the other way around, and most certainly, it is the Taiwan national baseball team, and that probably would be the official name were it not for interference from mainland China. What else should we be taking into account? Regards, Ben Aveling 11:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it more NPOV to use the official names in this situation. The common term in Taiwan translates as "Chinese Taipei National Baseball Team", not the "Taiwan National Baseball Team". Using TNBT would also contradict with the main logo in the top of the page. This article here seems like a neutral compromise: Chinese Taipei at the 2006 Asian Games. LionheartX 16:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it is better to use the name Taiwan National Baseball team because it relates to the entire life history of the team, during which it has competed under three different official names since its independence from Japan. Of those three different names, Taiwan is the best known and most commonly used. Thus, while the name Chinese Taipei should be mentioned in the article, as it does include Pre-Chinese Taipei history of the team, it should be named Taiwan National Baseball Team. ludahai 魯大海 14:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

So the issue here is whether to use the current or the traditional name for the article title. My thought is that we use CTNBT if we should follow the name currently more common in use (though Google says otherwise), and TNBT if we should write this article with its basis on its origin. It's like choosing either the old or the new. For the naming controversy part, a redirect from either name should lead the readers to understand about it. At least that's what I feel. Vic₂₂₆^說 04:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This article should at least be moved back to "... national baseball team" rather than "... National Baseball Team" as the lowercase form is used for all the other national team articles. - MTC 07:36, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Restructuring

Okay, let me explain some of my restructing:

• I removed the history section because I don't think it will ever be expanded. The records of achievement is pretty much the history of the team.
• I adjusted the lead paragraph. "Excluded" is rather POV-leaning, even though it was the truth. I changed that to "the withdrawal", which is the official usage.
• I grouped all the participated competitions together so that it looks organized.
• Removed the statistics; the Taiwanese team is not even in any of those tables.
• Reformatted the Roster section. Since it's the national team, it's really unnecessary to include the flag when they are obviously all from the same country.

Good work on the article! AQu01rius (User • Talk) 04:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject China

I don't believe this article should be a part of WikiProject China as this has nothing to do with China. ludahai 魯大海 14:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Me neither, unless any of you want to go through the "Taiwan/ROC issue," but I believe we shouldn't because this isn't a political article. And even if it is, it certainly should not be a high importance for WikiProject China, I think it would have to be a low importance.--Jerrypp772000 15:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Then can we get rid of the tag?? Kc0616 14:43, 7 June 2007

I got rid of it. I think it'll be alright.--Jerry 22:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, China =/= People's Republic of China. It is a well established principle and convention. The article China also refers to the Republic of China. This article is within the scope of WikiProject China. LionheartX

Just because you say China =/= People's Republic of China doesn't stop people from assuming that they are equal. Isn't the goal of Wikipedia to make things more obvious and understandable instead of making it more confusing? Kc0616 20:23, 16 June 2007

PRC and ROC should be used only in political contexts, which this article obviously isn't one. Not everything in Wikipedia has to be political you know?--Jerry 19:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Why is this article part of WikiProject China? I don't see any America-related articles under WikiProject England or UK, do you? Kc0616 13:02, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Chinese Taipei National Baseball Team logo.png

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BetacommandBot 04:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Chinese Taipei

The official name of the team in english is "chinese taipei". If u check the official site, there is not any reference (in the name) to "taiwan", "national taiwan" or else. If u take a look at the official logo, u will see "CT", that stand for "chinese taipei" The IOC decission allowed taiwan to re-join under the name of "chinese taipei". "National taiwan baseball team" could be added in the "name controversy" section. When we talk about ROC-Taiwan, the main name of the article is not taiwan, but "Republic of China", because thats the official name. We dont talk about "Chunghwa post" anymore, because the official name of that company is now "taiwan post". In the article about "taiwan post", the main title is, effectively, "taiwan post". You could check FIFA too: no references to "taiwan", but "chinese taipei". In the chinese version of the baseball team, we read 中華成棒隊. How do you translate that? SO PLEASE, USE THE OFFICIAL NAME TO NAME THE WHOLE ARTICLE--User:gumuhua 22:55, 2008-07-24

This article is not just about the Taiwanese team under the IOC. Please read the previous discussion in the section above.--Jerrch 22:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Title is imprecise, since there is no such thing as a Taiwan "nation". Call it Chinese Taipei or Republic of China. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

There's also Hong Kong national baseball team.--Jerrch 16:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

"Taiwan nation" implies the POV that Taiwan is a nation. It doesn't matter what the team was traditionally called, when NPOV is involved (one of Wikipedia's core policies), the current official title should be used. --Joowwww (talk) 12:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

"Hong Kong nation" implies even more of an extreme POV. But baseball treats both as separate entities.

Chinese Taipei is neither a "nation" anyway. And if you want to be technical, actually the United States isn't a nation either.--Jerrch 15:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The status of Hong Kong isn't disputed. The status of Taiwan is. --Joowwww (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh really, the status of "Hong Kong as a nation" isn't disputed? I find that pretty funny.--Jerrch 15:58, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I meant HK's status as a SAR is not disputed. In terms of "national" sporting teams, Hong Kong can be (borderline) described as a nation due to its history as a British colony, its own government and its current SAR status (along the lines of the UK's nations within a country), and the fact that no other country disputes that status. My point wasn't about Hong Kong, it's that Taiwan's status as a sovereign nation is' disputed between the PRC and the ROC, and Wikipedia should not swing either way, or represent either viewpoint, as per WP:NPOV. --Joowwww (talk) 17:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

This might be reading into it a little too much, but talking about a "national" team as far as sports doesn't seem to imply sovereign nationhood, at all. For example, the UK is one state, with several nations (England, Scotland, Wales), each of which has a national soccer team of its own. "Nation" has the tendency to be confusing, since we frequently hear it used in a few different contexts (to mean either state, nation, or nation-state) but in a sports setting it seems like the term "national" does not typically denote statehood or sovereignty. And Chinese Taipei was a compromise name to satisfy the IOC, overall I believe that using Chinese Taipei exclusively or at all will be much more confusing to those not familiar with the politically sensitive nature of the team and the country it represents.Wesmontgom (talk) 16:36, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Some definitions:

nation 1 a (1): nationality 5a (2): a politically organized nationality (3): a non-Jewish nationality <why do the nations conspire — Psalms 2:1 (Revised Standard Version)> b: a community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and government c: a territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and usually characterized by relatively large size and independent status

country 1: an indefinite usually extended expanse of land : region <miles of open country>2 a: the land of a person's birth, residence, or citizenship b: a political state or nation or its territory

state 5 a: a politically organized body of people usually occupying a definite territory; especially : one that is sovereign b: the political organization of such a body of people c: a government or politically organized society having a particular character <a police state> <the welfare state>6: the operations or concerns of the government of a country Readin (talk) 20:06, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "Taiwan national baseball team". If someone insists that this article isn't just about the Chinese Taipei team then we change the name of this article to "National baseball team of the Republic of China" - this is what the team in called in Chinese "中華民國棒球國家隊".

When I read the article, the national status is so confusing:-

• a country called "Taiwan" with the ROC national flag in the infobox;
• The infobox says "Chinese Taipei baseball team";
• a statement saying "...the national team of the Republic of China (Taiwan)";
• a statement saying "the delegation had to reach a compromise name, changing it from 中華民國棒球國家隊 (Zhōnghuá Mínguó Bàngqiú Guójiāduì) to its present one".

• what's the "present one"?
• the Chinese says "National baseball team of the Republic of China", I wonder why the writer just left the Chinese in Pinyin. The sentence doesn't even make sense to an English speaker.

• a statement saying "Taiwan's Chinese Professional Baseball League";
• throughout this article, the team is called "Chinese Taipei"

Look at the official website:-

• http://www.ctba.org.tw/

The Chinese says "Baseball Association of the Republic of China" and the English just says "Chinese Taipei Baseball Association".

I think we should just change this article to "Chinese Taipei baseball team". Baseball is not about politics. Don't make it one.--pyl (talk) 16:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

The pairing of "Taiwan" with the flag is a problem with a template somewhere. It would be nice to get that fixed so it just says "Tawian" and doesn't display a flag. Readin (talk) 18:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Yep, that's an issue. But look at my list above, the lack of uniformity is all over the place, we need to fix that.--pyl (talk) 13:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Due to the lack of objections (as this discussion has been here for a while), I proceeded to change the title of the article for uniformity, neutrality and reader friendliness. It is easier for common English readers (Wikipedia's main audience) to understand the information rather than confused by the off-the-topic ideological arguments. The team is commonly known as Chinese Taipei internationally and using this name is not a POV in terms of the political status of Taiwan--pyl (talk) 15:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:42, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Chinese Taipei baseball team → Taiwan national baseball team —

I hereby propose a move back to the original "Taiwan national baseball team" title of this page. The main reason that people were saying "national" couldn't be part of the name was the claim that Taiwan isn't a nation. While the political status of Taiwan is still disputed, so is that of Hong Kong and that of Palestine.

However, the Palestine national football team and Hong Kong national baseball team pages exist without any dispute, so I don't see why the Taiwanese baseball team, which is much more prominent and well-known in the sports world than the other two teams can't be called a "national" team.

Second, according to basic naming conventions of Wikipedia pages, articles should be named using the common name of the subject over the official name. Right now, the name of the article is neither an official name nor a common name. It should be noted that while "Chinese Taipei" is currently the official designated name used by the ROC (Taiwan), the "Chinese Taipei baseball team" isn't used.

The Baseball WikiProject set a precedent of using "national baseball team" as the basic format of naming similar articles, and Taiwan is the only article currently not following the format. I could live with "Chinese Taipei national baseball team" (which actually has more ghits than the current name), even though the article contains information about the same team that played under other names, which would make "Taiwan national baseball team" a more appropriate name.--Jerrch 21:05, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose The name of the team is "Chinese Taipei". It's even in the LOGO which contains a CT. If you went to a baseball competition, you will not find a team called "Taiwan", it will be listed as "Chinese Taipei". If you were to look up a team via what you saw on TV (which would list "Chinese Taipei") you'd probably think Wikipedia is wrong again, if it doesn't know what's what if the article isn't there. Can you prove that the baseball team's common name isn't "Chinese Taipei" ? (This is the baseball team we're talking about, not the people, or the adjective for the ROC) 70.29.208.247 (talk) 23:15, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

• Support Taiwan is the common name of this state, even Formosa or Nationalist China could be more common than China-Taipei. PatGallacher (talk) 22:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment the state is not the team. 70.29.208.247 (talk) 05:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose The team is known as Chinese Taipei in broadcasts, on websites, even on their uniform with the "CT" logo as opposed to just a "T" which could be potentially ambiguous. The ISO standard abbreviation is "TPE" for Taipei, and not something for Taiwan. The article is about the team, not about the location or people that the team represents. Though Taiwan may be the common name for the location, I don't see how anything other than Chinese Taipei could be the common name for the team.

As to the point about the "... [national] baseball team" part of the argument... I think that given the political situation involved, I don't think its unreasonable for an exception to be made for this article's name to have a different suffix to the other national baseball team articles. However, I think whichever way it's decided - include "national" or not - it should be the same for all Chinese Taipei teams: at the moment the association football, basketball, and volleyball teams (which are the teams linked to in the navbox at the bottom of the article) all include "national" in the titles. So it seems to me that either this should have it added, or the others should have it removed.  Afaber012  (talk)  06:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose The team itself is always called Chinese Taipei and never Taiwan. Even if the state is called Taiwan. Therefore WP:COMMONNAME says to name it Chinese Taipei. -DJSasso (talk) 16:43, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - IBAF, the governing body responsible for tournaments in which this team participates, utilizes the Olympic standard of the name "Chinese Taipei" (if they didn't, it's likely the Chinese national team wouldn't have participated in the last WBC). For sourcing, see the IBAF media guide, specifically the section on the World Baseball Classic and its qualifying rounds. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:59, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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