Talk:Center Party (Israel)

Requested move 24 August 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Much as it pains me to see us moving to that weird spelling, with the letters the wrong way round, it does seem like consensus is with the ayes here. The weight of sources giving "Center" make it a clear WP:COMMONNAME, trumping the WP:RETAIN argument. There's also no firm consensus as to whether WP:TIES should apply here - the number of English-language Israeli sources would suggest perhaps it should.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:05, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

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Centre Party (Israel) → Center Party (Israel) – The article uses 1 reference and 2 external links (in English), all 3 call the party "Center Party" so per WP:CRITERIA the name that should be used is exactly that. Additionally, Israel, while not being an English speaking country, does use predominantly American English. So the argument of MOS:ENGVAR which was used to restore the article to this current incorrect name is incorrect. Gonnym (talk) 08:11, 24 August 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 22:10, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

• Sources: The Israel Democracy Institute (Center Party), Knesset (Israel in the Center), Knesset (Center Party), Ministry of Education (Lexical items are presented using American spelling conventions and page 38 which has "Center" listed and not "Centre").
• Support move per sources. O.N.R. ^(talk) 19:34, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:RETAIN. The long-standing title seems to be Centre Party. The fact that the three sources that happen to be in the article use the -er spelling is not statistically significant (it would be different if all, or the vast majority, of sources used that spelling, but that seems not to be true). Israel is not an English-speaking country so WP:TIES has no force. --Trovatore (talk) 20:20, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
• Trying to limit the results to only Israel-based sources (as the US and British results tend to stick to their own style): Times of Israel, Haaretz, Globes, Jewish Virtual Library; more official sources: Embassies.gov.il, Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs; and books: Historical Dictionary of Israel By Bernard Reich, David H. Goldberg, The Triumph of Israel's Radical Right By Ami Pedahzur, 1001 Facts Everyone Should Know about Israel By Mitchell Geoffrey Bard, Moshe Schwartz, Telepopulism: Media and Politics in Israel By Yoram Peri, The Elections in Israel 1999 edited by Michal Shamir. As can be seen all official Israeli institutes use "Center Party" in addition to organizations, news sources and books. RETAIN cannot be invoked when only one title is correct. --Gonnym (talk) 20:51, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Non-English-speaking countries have no special standing under TIES, so what gets written in English specifically from Israel is not especially relevant. --Trovatore (talk) 21:06, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
    • How are numerous sites from the official government not relevant? You do realize that the government deals in international affairs in English right? Which is why we have an official translation in English. Also, are you actually familiar with our title policies? See WP:TRANSLITERATE and in more detail WP:ENGLISH. --Gonnym (talk) 21:51, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
      • Those sites are irrelevant because Israel is not an English-speaking country. That's basically it. What happens to be written in a non-English-speaking country in English, whether official or not, has no ENGVAR weight whatsoever. --Trovatore (talk) 20:43, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
        • I think Israel has enough English language usage to be considered an English-speaking country for the purposes of ENGVAR. See my comment on this below. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:31, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
          • Do you now? Just the fact that a lot of people speak English can't be enough, otherwise most of Europe would count as English-speaking. What fraction of the population speaks English at home by preference? --Trovatore (talk) 04:48, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
            • Where in WP:ENGVAR does it say that the percentage of the population that speaks English at home by preference is the criteria that is used to determine which countries count as "English-speaking countries"? And if that is the criteria, then I doubt countries like South Africa and India would qualify as an English-speaking country. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:51, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support – there are no WP:TIES arguments in this case, and WP:RETAIN says "...maintain [English variety] in the absence of consensus to the contrary. " Well there's a very good case for a consensus to the contrary here. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:43, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
• Comment Whatever spelling this party itself used (assuming it ever used the English version of its name) is what we should be using in this article. Rreagan007 (talk) 23:02, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Since the official site is down and all we have is the landing page, the closest to the spelling used by the party, is the one published by the Knesset itself. And as I've shown above, it, and all other official government agencies use the same "Center" spelling.
    • Fair enough. In that case I support this move based on the spelling used in the best available sources that we currently have. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:03, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
      • Note that there is nothing in ENGVAR or TITLEVAR that gives any special weight to the English-language government or party websites of a non-English-speaking country. --Trovatore (talk) 02:47, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
        • I would say that Israel has enough English language usage to be considered an English-speaking country for our purposes here. According to our Israel article: "English was an official language during the Mandate period; it lost this status after the establishment of Israel, but retains a role comparable to that of an official language, as may be seen in road signs and official documents. Many Israelis communicate reasonably well in English, as many television programs are broadcast in English with subtitles and the language is taught from the early grades in elementary school. In addition, Israeli universities offer courses in the English language on various subjects.". Rreagan007 (talk) 04:25, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
          • I don't think that's enough. With the exception of the historical official-language thing (which isn't that important), most of those would apply to most of Continental Europe. I might not particularly mind a one-off exception for Israel. But the idea of granting "English-speaking" status to Sweden or France, or looking on the English-language part of the Die Welt website to decide how to spell things about German topics, that's too much for me. --Trovatore (talk) 05:10, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
            • Okay well then you tell me exactly what are the official criteria for what constitutes an "English-speaking country" for purposes of WP:ENGVAR. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:47, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
              • I lived there for four years, and it's not an English-speaking country. An English-speaking country would be one where a significant proportion of people speak English as their main language, or it is widely used as the language in schools or public affairs. This isn't the case in Israel – many people speak English, but not as many as somewhere like the Netherlands or Denmark. Number 57 12:31, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
                • I appreciate your anecdotal story of having lived there, but I asked for what criteria we should be using for determining what is and is not an English-speaking country. If a larger percentage of the Israeli population can speak English than say India or South Africa, does that mean that India and South Africa are not English-speaking countries either? Rreagan007 (talk) 19:36, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
                  • As I suggested, this would be a country "where a significant proportion of people speak English as their main language, or it is widely used as the language in schools or public affairs". And dismissing my experience as an 'anecdotal story' is a pretty poor attitude to take here. Number 57 19:54, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
                    • Well see the quote from the Israel article I posted above. It sounds like Israel qualifies based on your criteria. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:55, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
                      • It doesn't. English is not spoken at home by much of the population (probably only immigrants from English-speaking countries) and is not used as the medium of education in state schools. Some universities have a small number of courses available in English, but this isn't unusual for European universities. Whenever I interacted with the state (such as at the Ministry of Interior or the Driving Licence Agency), I was not able to do it in English. Number 57 11:30, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose I can't understand why the fact that the sources that happened to have been used in the article are justification for a move. If the article had used sources like the IPU or Haaretz (an Israeli newspaper) or Israel at the Polls (a book about the 1999 election with an entire chapter on the party, which is by far the most comprehensive source on the party that I have found in English), then the justification wouldn't exist. Number 57 12:15, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
  • The IPU link uses "Centre" once and "Center" twice. --Gonnym (talk) 13:23, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
    • Ha, touché. However, the point still stands that reliable and relevant sources use both spellings. Would you have suggested the move if the article had been sourced entirely to the Israel at the Polls book (which looks to be a very good source)? Number 57 19:01, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
      • The criteria should be if one spelling is used in sourcing predominantly. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:35, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
• Comment I don't care what spelling is used. What I care about is that no one has made any effort to provide references.Geewhiz (talk) 12:36, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
  • If you are referring to references in this discussion, both Number 57 and I provided some. Are you looking for something specific? --Gonnym (talk) 13:19, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
    • The article comes with a single reference. That's what I'm talking about.--Geewhiz (talk) 05:26, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
      • Yes, but at least a dozen references have been provided in the discussion above, and at least some of those can be added to the article if this is moved. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:32, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
• That is all very nice, but they are all in "talk," not on the page itself, to back up the spelling of a word. Rather than wasting all this time and research on how to spell center/centre, why don't you guys just fix up the article - whether it is moved or not? Just a few more clicks and voila, a referenced article.--Geewhiz (talk) 14:38, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support per Gonnym. Calidum 17:16, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support per nom 2601:541:4500:1760:B5F6:607F:1FDE:9D7F (talk) 20:47, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support Rreagan007 (talk) 00:36, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • You have already !voted above. Number 57 00:46, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support per nomination, O.N.R., IJBall, Calidum and Rreagan. Gonnym has provided overwhelmingly convincing evidence that the written form, in English, of the party's name is "Center Party" and not "Centre Party". Taking into account that Israel's extensive English-language media uses "Center", it would be counterintuitive to use the British form "Centre" since the topic of this article is not British. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:41, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.