Talk:Arthur Morgan

Appearances section

@Theoldkinderhook: Your changes to the Appearances section add some unsourced information (most notably in the first sentence) and an excessive amount of detail (the section should briefly discuss the character's role in the game; the word count here exceeds plot guidelines, and character articles should be even less excessive). – Rhain ☔ 04:00, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Arthur Morgan (Red Dead)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cognissonance (talk · contribs) 00:26, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

I'll get to this as soon as possible. Cognissonance (talk) 00:26, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Lead

• "Western, Midwestern and Southern United States" — Add Oxford comma, per previous use.
• "He is portrayed by Roger Clark, who provided the character's performance capture" — For flow, follow "who" with "also" and, to avoid repetition, remove "character's".
• "decided that the player would control one character" — Avoid repetition: "decided that there would be one character to control".
• "in order to follow the character" — Replace "the character" with "Arthur".
• "They felt that a single character felt more appropriate" — Avoid repetition: "They felt that this was more appropriate". Subject is already raised in the previous sentence.
• "Clark wanted to portray the character" — Avoid repetition: "Clark wanted to present Arthur".
• "who also played John Marston" — "also" is not needed here.
• "the game's world" — "game's" is not needed here, the relation to the game is easily implied.
• "For his work on the game" — "on the game" is not needed here.
• "Clark received" — Avoid repetition: "Clark accrued".

Character development

• "The development team at Rockstar Games decided that the player would control one character in Red Dead Redemption 2, as opposed to the three protagonists in Rockstar's previous title Grand Theft Auto V (2013), in order to follow the character more personally and understand how the events impact him. They felt that a single character felt more appropriate for the narrative structure of a Western" — This must be rewritten to be more distinct from the lead.
• "Producer Rob Nelson felt that the decision to limit to one protagonist shaped the other creative decisions of development" — Unnecessary information, remove.
• "The conversations and sense of life within the gang environment was" — "were".
• "exploration of the lives of two of the game's playable characters while the player was controlling the other one" — Convoluted, needs to be simplified: "exploration of the dynamic lives of its uncontrolled playable characters".
• "Rockstar wanted to grant agency to the player when experiencing the story of Arthur Morgan; writer Michael Unsworth noted that Arthur is neither controlled by the storytellers or by the player, but consists of "a delicate push and pull between the two"" — This strikes me as an esoteric take with little to no factual value. Strongly suggest removal.
• "The team attempted to give the player more freedom with Arthur's relationship with other characters; when the narrative begins, Arthur has already formed relationships with the other gang members, so the team aimed to develop them in a way for the player to respond appropriately" — There is no indication of what is referred to as appropriate or the way in which characters were developed. This part doesn't just repeat "with", "team", "player", and "relationship", it also repeats the vague information that is trying to be conveyed. Remove.
• "Roger Clark portrayed Arthur in the game. His work was recorded using performance capture, involving simultaneous recording of movement and voice; a small part of his performance was recorded in a voiceover booth" — Avoid repetition and improve prose: "Actor Roger Clark portrayed Arthur in Red Dead Redemption 2. His performance capture work involved simultaneous recording of movement and speech, while a small part was done in a voice-over booth".
• "For his portrayal, Clark took main inspiration from Toshiro Mifune" — Avoid repetition and improve prose: "Researching the role, Clark's main inspiration came from Toshiro Mifune".
• "Toshiro Mifune. He found that Mifune's characters were stoic while also having a "crazy" sense of humor, a complexity he wanted to portray within Arthur" — Avoid repetition and improve prose: "Toshiro Mifune, whose characters' stoic but humorous demeanor held intricacies he wanted in Arthur".
• "Clark also took inspiration from The Proposition (2005) as it involved a similar situation to Arthur's, wherein he is forced to betray some of his loyalties" — Improve prose: "Clark gained insight from The Proposition (2005) as it contained a similar character arc as that of Arthur". Spoilers are not necessary in this sentence.
• "despite watching the Dollars Trilogy (1964–1966) he did not take much inspiration from Clint Eastwood's portrayal of the Man with No Name, as he felt that" — Avoid repetition: "despite watching the Dollars Trilogy (1964–1966), he did not take much from Clint Eastwood's depiction of the Man with No Name because he felt that".
• "during production for inspiration" — "for inspiration" is not needed here.
• Ref. 8 must be replaced with a more reliable source.
• "Clark wanted to portray a character that was complex enough for the player to choose his path and still make sense." — Rewrite to make different from the lead.
• "He initially faced difficulty with this concept, as the high honor performance was different to the low honor, but he reminded himself that Arthur was a complex character who could easily contradict himself" — Avoid repetition: "He initially faced difficulty with this concept, as the high honor execution was different to the low honor, but he realized that Arthur was someone who could easily contradict himself".
• "He aimed to portray vulnerability with Arthur's ego. Clark felt that Arthur initially resented John Marston, as he had a family—something Arthur wishes he could have—but as the gang begins to fall apart, Arthur acts to help John, "try[ing] to do what he wishes he could have done for himself"" — Avoid repetition and improve prose: "Aiming to show the vulnerability of Arthur's ego, Clark observed that the resentment of John Marston for having a family fell apart as eventually he sought to help them".
• "Clark looked to Rob Wiethoff's portrayal as John in the first game for inspiration with his own performance" — Avoid repetition and improve prose: "Rob Wiethoff's performance as John in the first game influenced his own".
• "was cut from the game during development" — "from the game during development" is not needed here.
• "Vice President of Creativity Dan Houser" — I feel like "Writer" is a more accessible title.
• "Houser felt" — Avoid repetition: "He felt".

Appearances

• Since the section includes non-appearances, I suggest that you change the title to "Fictional character biography".
• "Arthur joined" — Add the last name.
• "the Van der Linde gang" — Add "Dutch" to this to establish that he is the leader.
• "14-years-old" — Dashes are not needed here, and use "fourteen" to coincide with past use of numbers.
• "for a trivial sum of money" — WP:POV, remove.
• "from a lost cause" — Not needed for the sentence to make sense.
• "When the gang is forced into a blizzard" — Add context: "When escaping an unsuccessful boat heist has them driven into the mountains".
• "later tracks down John" — Add context: "later tracks down fellow gang member John Marston, who got lost"
• "After moving to Clemens Point" — Avoid repetition: "Leaving for Clemens Point".
• "The conflict leads" — Avoid repetition: "This leads".
• "against the backstabbing Bronte who leads them into a trap" — Avoid repetition and WP:POV: "against Bronte after he ushered them into a trap".
• "Reuniting with the rest of the gang, Arthur and Sadie resolve to save the captured John" — Improve prose: "Reuniting with the rest, Arthur resolves to save the now captured John". Sadie doesn't come up later, so she doesn't need to be named.
• "Arthur contemplates" — Avoid repetition: "He contemplates".
• "Dutch seemingly abandons Arthur to die" — "to die" is not needed here, and the upcoming "for dead" is more effective without it.
• "to rescue Abigail" — Add context: "to rescue John's wife Abigail".
• "Agent Milton" — First time his name comes up, so replace it with "Pinkerton detectives", as the Pinkertons are mentioned later.
• "Upon confronting Milton, Arthur discovers" — Replace "Milton" with "them".
• "He returns to Dutch to inform him of Micah's betrayal" — Avoid repetition: "He returns to Dutch to inform him of this".
• "injuries and disease and dies peacefully while watching the sunrise" — Avoid repetition and improve prose: "injuries and disease, dying peacefully watching the sunrise".

Reception

• "Arthur's character" — Improve prose: "The character of Arthur Morgan".
• "the characters possess humanity often lacking in other Rockstar games, particularly in the thoughtful portrayal of Arthur's internal conflicts" — The reception should only focus on Arthur: "the thoughtful portrayal of Arthur's internal conflicts possessed humanity often lacking in other Rockstar games".
• According to WP:VG/RS, CG Magazine is an unreliable source and doesn't indicate, like with Giant Bomb, that it's appropriate for reviews.
• "Kotaku's Kirk Hamilton wrote that" — Avoid repetition: "Kirk Hamilton at Kotaku opined that".
• "Ars Technica's Daniel Starkey" — Avoid repetition: "Writing for Ars Technica, Daniel Starkey".
• "GamesRadar+'s Tom Power felt that Arthur's story reflects that of a Shakespearean tragedy, with some of the game's characters" — Avoid repetition and improve prose: "GamesRadar+'s Tom Power believed that the account of Arthur's life in Red Dead Redemption 2 reflected a Shakespearean tragedy, with some characters".
• I don't think using another review from GamesRadar commenting on the story is necessary.
• "EGMNow's Nick Plessas found the journey of redemption for Arthur Morgan" — Avoid repetition: "Nick Plessas of EGMNow found the journey of redemption".
• "than John Marston's" — Improve prose: "than that of John Marston".
• "noting that his sins heightened his" — Avoid repetition and WP:POV: "noting that his shortcomings heightened a sense of".
• "Javy Gwaltney of Game Informer echoed this sentiment" — Avoid repetition: "Javy Gwaltney's review for Game Informer echoed this sentiment".
• "noting that Arthur's arc is a" — Avoid repetition: "describing Arthur's arc as".
• "felt that Arthur was "generic", he did find himself to be "quite shook" by the ending to Arthur's story" — Avoid repetition and improve prose: "dismissed Arthur as "generic", he did feel "quite shook" by the ending to his story".
• "Conversely, Eurogamer's Martin Robinson considered Arthur to be less compelling than Marston, leading to a confusing narrative as a result" — Avoid repetition and improve prose: "Eurogamer author Martin Robinson considered Arthur to be less compelling than John, thus confusing his experience of the narrative".
• "The Guardian's Paul Walker-Emig noted that Arthur's notebook made him feel" — Add link to "The Guardian", replace "noted" with "thought" and "feel" with "appear".
• "Laurence Mozafari of Digital Spy felt that Arthur perfectly encapsulated the feeling of the Old West" — Avoid repetition and improve prose: "Laurence Mozafari of Digital Spy submitted that Arthur had perfectly encapsulated the Old West".
• "VentureBeat's Dean Takahashi praised Clark's performance for adding to the game's immersion and the character's depth" — Avoid repetition and improve prose: "VentureBeat writer Dean Takahashi praised Clark's performance for adding to the game's immersion and character's depth".
• "Luke Reilly at IGN celebrated the life brought into the character, describing his voice as having an "infectious authenticity"" — Avoid repetition and simplify: "Luke Reilly at IGN described Arthur's voice as having an "infectious authenticity"".
• "For his role as Arthur" — "as Arthur" is not needed here.

In this review I felt like I was suggesting copyedits for every sentence, a sign that the article needed a comprehensive copyedit before the nomination. It is its biggest problem, and hopefully my suggestions will lighten that burden. We'll see. I will re-read and make sure when you're done. Cognissonance (talk) 18:27, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Cognissonance. I've made some changes per your comments. The link to YouTube in reference 8 (now reference 7) is a convenience link; the source itself isn't unreliable. Let me know if you have any other concerns. – Rhain ☔ 23:45, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Round 2

Lead

• "Arthur must deal with the decline of the Wild West while attempting to survive against government forces, rival gangs, and other adversaries in a fictionalized representation of the Western, Midwestern, and Southern United States" — This is verbatim from the Red Dead Redemption 2 lead, change it enough so that it differs. What is not sourced in the body are the "rival gangs" and "Western, Midwestern, and Southern United States". The latter can be replaced with "American frontier".
• "The development team at" — Unnecessary.
• "Clark wanted to portray" — I still think using this after "He is portrayed by Roger Clark" is an unnecessary repetition. Any synonym will do.
• "character" is repeated 5 times in this section. The third paragraph can easily begin with "Arthur" and the upcoming instance can be replaced with "him".

Character development

• "decided that there" — Replace "decided" with a synonym like "determined", further removing its similarity to the lead.
• "in order to follow the character more personally and better understand how the events impact him" — Basically the same information written twice, I suggest: to better understand how the events impact him". This also removes a repetition of "the character".
• "They felt that a single character felt more appropriate for the narrative structure of a Western" — I'll suggest this because it's much too similar to the lead: "They also saw that the narrative structure of a Western necessitated a single perspective".
• "The conversations and sense of life within the gang environment were inspired by Grand Theft Auto V's exploration of the dynamic lives of its uncontrolled playable characters" — Only realising it now, and I don't enjoy having content removed, but this doesn't have anything to do with Arthur specifically.
• "Actor Roger Clark portrayed" — As "portrayal" is used later in the next paragraph, I'd prefer this instead: "Actor Roger Clark played".
• "despite watching the Dollars Trilogy" — To avoid repetition, instead use "viewing".
• "he did not take much inspiration from Clint Eastwood's depiction" — Avoid repetition of "inspiration" and improve prose: "he did not derive much from Clint Eastwood's depiction".
• "A second love interest for Arthur was cut" — Per source, add this: "for want of a desired effect".
• "subverting the trope of the protagonist" — As "protagonists" was used in the first paragraph of the section, maybe use "lead" or "leading man".

Fictional character biography

• The section repeats "gang" 8 times. Some of these can either be removed or replaced with "group", where appropriate.
• "the capture of Jack Marston" — Add context: "the capture of John's son, Jack".
• "When Pinkertons invade the camp" — Replace "When" with "As" to avoid repetition of the word in the same paragraph.
• "Dutch intervenes in their fight" — "in their fight" is not needed here, especially since "fight" is repeated in the section.
• "if the player has low honor" — Avoid repetition: "with low honor".

Reception

• "received acclaim" — Write "critical acclaim"' for better flow.
• "LevelSkip's Kyle Atwood called Arthur Morgan" — Avoid repetition: "Kyle Atwood from LevelSkip called him".
• "became more intriguing throughout the game, aided by Clark's performance" — Copyedit: "became more intriguing because of Clark's performance".
• "some will see it as a typical story" — Avoid repetition and improve prose: "some may see it as a typical tale".
• "the journey of redemption for Arthur Morgan to be" — Copyedit: "his journey to be". Following up "redemption" with "redeeming" felt a little too on the nose.
• "by the ending to his story as" — Per source, this is more accurate: "after finishing the game".
• "Conversely" — I'm not sure this applies, since Robinson didn't like Arthur either.
• "Several critics felt that the character brought the game's world to life" — Remove as this is explored in the paragraph anyway, and it is also too similar to what is in the lead.
• "found that players "feel for Arthur Morgan" — Avoid repetition and improve prose: "found that the player connected with "Arthur Morgan".
• "praised Clark's performance for adding to the game's immersion and the character's depth" — Avoid repetition: "praised Clark's contribution for adding to the immersion and character's depth".
• "and was awarded gold from PlayStation Blog" — I think this is easier to understand: "and was a runner-up for the same category at PlayStation Blog".

@Rhain: Ping me when you're done and I'll take a look. Cognissonance (talk) 03:04, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

@Cognissonance: Made some changes per your comments. I also removed Yahtzee's review entirely, partly because of a recent discussion but mostly because it added nothing to the section. Let me know if there's anything else. – Rhain ☔ 03:51, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your swift responses. I made edits of my own for the final stretch and am now satisfied with the prose. Passing the article now. Cognissonance (talk) 04:38, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 21:23, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Roger Clark

• ... that Rockstar Games felt that the narrative structure of a Western necessitated a single perspective in Red Dead Redemption 2, as opposed to the three protagonists of Grand Theft Auto V? Source: THR
  • ALT1:... that, while portraying Arthur Morgan in Red Dead Redemption 2, Roger Clark (pictured) regularly listened to Don Edwards's version of "Coyotes" during production? Source: SacAnime
  • ALT2:... that writer Dan Houser avoided meeting Roger Clark (pictured), who portrayed Arthur Morgan, during production of Red Dead Redemption 2 to avoid hearing his real voice? Source: GQ
  • ALT3:... that Roger Clark (pictured) did not derive much from Clint Eastwood's character in the Dollars Trilogy because he felt that Red Dead Redemption 2's Arthur Morgan was more talkative? Source: THR

• Reviewed: Robert De Niro filmography

Improved to Good Article status by Rhain (talk). Self-nominated at 00:28, 21 April 2020 (UTC).

• Substantial article, meeting of GA criteria implicates DYK pass. QPQ has been completed. These hooks seem to be written from a primarily in-universe perspective, or at least that of someone familiar with Rockstar/RDR, and I question how interesting they'd be to a lay audience. Maybe a hook about how the character's influences (Toshiro Mifune, The Proposition, etc) would be better received? Morgan695 (talk) 03:27, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

@Morgan695: How about one of these?

ALT4: ... that, when researching for the role of Arthur Morgan for Red Dead Redemption 2, actor Roger Clark (pictured) was inspired by the stoic but humorous demeanor of Toshiro Mifune's characters? Source: VG247

ALT5: ... that actor Roger Clark (pictured) felt that the 2005 film The Proposition had a similar character arc as that of Arthur Morgan in Red Dead Redemption 2? Twinfinite

– Rhain ☔ 01:07, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Approved for ALT4 and 5. Morgan695 (talk) 01:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi

Arthur is Welsh and British also 130.44.20.170 (talk) 14:31, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Appearances

Arthur was mentioned in one of the newspapers in rdr1, here so could someone change the article to reflect that? 86.141.116.238 (talk) 04:55, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: That newspaper is from Red Dead Redemption 2. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 05:17, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2024

In the "character development" section, add that the persona of wrestler Stone Cold Steve Austin was an inspiration for Clark's portrayal of Arthur Morgan. He confirms this on a post of his Instagram, linked here (refer to Clark's reply of the comment by user "chrisxillustrates"). 67.249.118.52 (talk) 01:55, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done. A vague response to a comedic Instagram comment is neither reliable nor notable enough for inclusion, I'm afraid. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 01:58, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Article looks great until the biography section. Can you at least cite them like Template:Cite video game and the end of the paragraph???? 126.11.103.43 (talk) 13:32, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

References are not necessary for basic story details (per MOS:PLOT), if that's what you're suggesting. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 14:15, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 15 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:15, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

---

Arthur Morgan (Red Dead) → Arthur Morgan – I checked every existing "Arthur Morgan" article page views, but obviously this fictional character page views is way too far compare from the others. And when you look up Arthur Morgan, of course the fictional character is more well known than others. Greenish Pickle! (🔔) 05:22, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. There are eight bulleted entries listed upon the Arthur Morgan disambiguation page, with no indication that this character's renown exceeds the combined notability of the remaining seven names, one of whom (Arthur Morgan (Australian politician, born 1856)) served as Premier of Queensland, with his article being nominated for deletion alongside this nomination. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  He is not a well known person + the page views were very low. Greenish Pickle! (🔔) 09:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  Combined notability? Why does the notability of the other seven subjects need to be combined against this? How do you measure combined notability? Neocorelight (Talk) 23:57, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support: I have checked the views on Pageviews Analysis and out of every Arthur Morgan in the disambiguation, the one about in Red Dead has the most views. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 16:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Pure WP:RECENTISM. Not long-term significance. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

    Not really recent, in my opinion. I have extended the Pageview Analysis even more farther and I have found that the Red Dead Arthur has had more views than other Arthurs since late 2019. Given that this has been sustained for the last 4 and 1/2 years, I believe it contains long term significance. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 14:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

    That's still recent! Where's the long-term significance? It's not just about pageviews. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:30, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The bar for a fictional character to outweigh a real person is very high. Harry Potter he ain't. The vast majority of people will never have heard of him. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:36, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

*:I see. Well if thats the case. I'm gonna '''Withdraw''' now. Greenish Pickle! (🔔) 10:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: If the page is moved, I believe that the now Arthur Morgan page should be moved to Arthur Morgan (disambiguation). Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 15:02, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support Nah, Greenish Pickle was correct and withdrawing now would be a WP:SUPERVOTE and should not be allowed. Arthur Morgan is indeed the primary topic with an absolutely overwhelming number of pageviews compared to the other real-life people. It is not "recentism" as this has been the case for a very long time. The DAB page should also be moved to Arthur Morgan (disambiguation). ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

  Agreed. RM closing instructions say that ...move discussions should remain open for at least seven days (168 hours) to allow interested editors adequate time to participate. However, when no one has commented yet, or if opposition is unanimous, discussions may be closed prior to the seven-day timeframe... and given that this RM has received some support, it is no longer unanimously opposed to, and should not be withdrawn at this point. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 17:49, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support. The page views here are too lopsided in favor of the Red Dead character to ignore. There's also no rule that fictional characters face a higher bar than real people when it comes to being the primary topic. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 18:13, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
  • No rule, but certainly general consensus at previous RMs. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:28, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support - clear primary topic. 85% of users are going from Arthur Morgan to Arthur Morgan (Red Dead). – Pbrks ^(t·c) 15:15, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Contemporary media should not take any type of preference in cases where there are real life historical figures at the same name. --Masem (t) 14:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not voting on this since I have no preference either way, but there's nothing really stating that to be the case. That's just a preference based on past editors, and not really a "ground rule" that needs to be followed. Per above statistics, the character seems to have more inherent notability than the real-life figures, which is why this move is even being argued for. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 20:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support per Pbrks. This is the page that most readers are trying to get to when they type Arthur Morgan. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:00, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Wikipedia is WP:NOTFINISHED. The decisions we make today are not binding in perpetuity, regardless of how 'gauche' it feels to make a frivolous video game character the primary topic for something, even temporarily. That said, there is a tangible UX benefit to saving 85% of people a disambiguation click for the next however many years until some other Arthur Morgan overtakes the fictional outlaw in terms of primary topic. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:41, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.