Talk:Antisemitism in Christianity/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Suggestion to add settings for an archive bot to work

{{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{aan}}
|maxarchivesize = 200K
|counter = 4
|minthreadsleft = 10
|minthreadstoarchive = 1
|algo = old(90d)
|archive = Talk:Christianity and antisemitism/Archive  %(counter)d
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This might clear out dead discussions and improve accessibility.

Wikipedia provides some reasonably clear Talk page guidelines. One of the sections within the guidelines concerns: When to condense pages. It says: "It is recommended to archive or refactor a page either when it exceeds 75 KB, or has more than 10 main sections". At the point of this edit the page contained 109 KB Gregkaye (talk) 14:00, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:3D Test of Antisemitism which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 10:30, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Related articles

Question for page watchers. How should this article be related to the following?

• Blood libel
• History of antisemitism
• Antisemitism
• Persecution of Jews
• Anti-Judaism
• Religious antisemitism
• Racial antisemitism
• New antisemitism

• Antisemitism and the New Testament
• Anti-Judaism in early Christianity
• Martin Luther and antisemitism
• Medieval antisemitism
• History of the Jews and the Crusades
• History of antisemitism
• Timeline of antisemitism

• Antisemitism in Europe
• Antisemitism in the United States
• History of antisemitism in the United States
• Antisemitism in the Soviet Union
• History of the Jews in Russia
• Antisemitism in Ukraine
• History of Jews in Ukraine
• History of the Jews in Germany
• Pogrom
• Kishinev pogrom
• Anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian Empire
• and there are just a boatload of "pogrom" articles....

Quite a plateful. Jytdog (talk) 00:06, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

liturgy

something we need to introduce is antisemistism. or perhaps anti-judaism, in liturgy. Roman Catholics had their Good Friday prayer for the Jews until John XXXIII stopped the Good Friday mass in 1959 and asked for the prayer to be repeated without "perfidis" in it. Eastern Orthodox have similar issues, praying for "the murderers of God; the lawless nation of the Jews" (Beatitudes, sticheron). See Eugen J. Pentiuc. The Old Testament in Eastern Orthodox Tradition. Oxford University Press (February 6, 2014) ISBN 978-0195331233, p 40. Jytdog (talk) 02:40, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

ditto, timing of pogroms and the liturgical calendar, particularly Easter. Jytdog (talk) 02:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Edits today

• removed "Rejection of Jesus as the Messiah" section which said nothing about "New Testament rejection of Judaism" and seems to have involved into just be an unfortunate defense of antisemitism
• removed "Observance of Mosaic law" section which also said nothing about "New Testament rejection of Judaism" and also seems to have involved into just be an unfortunate defense of antisemitism
• removed "Conversion of Gentiles to Judaism" which said nothing about that, also said nothing about "New Testament rejection of Judaism" and was just meandering and full of WP:OR
• removed "Criticism of the Pharisee" while promising, had no citations and is covered by the remaining section

There was also a strange softening of the lead, that didn't reflect the contents of this article, which I corrected. Happy to discuss. Jytdog (talk) 04:11, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• also removed "Early differences" which said nothing with sourcing about actual roots of antisemitism in Christianity. was more apologetics about christians having it bad than anything Jytdog (talk) 06:10, 14 September 2014 (UTC) (copyedit, i surely meant "evolved into" but make it more simple and not assume this history Jytdog (talk) 17:42, 23 September 2014 (UTC))

I have reverted all these except the changes to the 1st para of the lead. They seem to reflect nothing more than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. While the stuff removed was, like most of the article, largely unsourced, it seemed fairly standard stuff, & necessary to cover the subject properly. I have changed the headings, which seem to represent a major complaint above, trimmed some weak or dubious stuff and moved bits around. Johnbod (talk) 13:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Please take my edits as good faith, as we are meant to. Please explain how the sections I deleted are within the scope of this article. And please note that per the policy WP:VERIFY "Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed." Everything I did was according to policy. I acknowledge it was drastic, which is why I opened this section when I did it. As I said, happy to discuss, but please respond to the points I have made. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 16:06, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I am happy to take you edits as good faith, but I can't see them as an improvement. All the material clearly had bearing on the subject of Christianity and antisemitism. If WP:VERIFY was strictly enforced here, there would be almost nothing left, as in so many articles. The objections you made above mainly related to "said nothing about "New Testament rejection of Judaism"", a problem I have largely solved by changing that rather POV heading. I can't see any "unfortunate defense of antisemitism" in what is left, please give details. You removed material that was referenced, while I have added some references, though by no means as many as are needed. I notice from your edits you mostly remove text from articles, and add stuff to talk. Johnbod (talk) 16:46, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

WIth respect to sourcing, WP:VERIFY is policy. I am now working on this article and I will be removing more unsourced content. Wikipedia is not a platform for OR or soapboxing. Things need to be verified, and if removing OR/Soapboxing leaves a stub for a while, so be it. On the scope issue, this article is about Christian antisemitism. What does does Christians being persecuted by Rome, or Rome waging war on Jews, have to do with that? This is the kind of issue I had. If you look at each of the sections I deleted, they had nothing - zippo - to do with the topic of this article. It is real question - please respond to that, which regard to each section I deleted. Thanks! And your description of my editing is wrong. I add lots to WP. I also am vigilant for people abusing their editing privileges by adding OR and soapboxing which unfortunately they do pretty often - I do delete that stuff. And in any case, per WP:TPG discuss content not contributor. Do NOT personalize this. We are discussing this article and its content, based on WP policies and guidelines. Jytdog (talk) 17:46, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I've tagged the sections that are problematic pending our discussion here.Jytdog (talk) 19:23, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You made no attempt to remove the unreferenced material in most of the article, just those sections on the early period you don't like, for some reason you have not yet articulated. Johnbod (talk) 00:17, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Johnbod would you please continue the discussion? I checked your contribs and you are editing today, and I would like to move forward on improving this article. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 00:14, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I won't have much/any time in the week. I suggest you get some sources and start reading them, before adding references and material. Your latest edits are also unhelpful - removing largely the wrong FR & EL. The EL ones especially; this article is not about the Holocaust. Johnbod (talk) 00:17, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Wow that is an arrogant response. duh it is not about the holocaust - that is just the culmination of a long history. Your characterizations of my edits is still wrong. It has nothing to do with WP:DONTLIKEIT - it has to do with the scope, which you are not dealing with, even still. I will just keep working on the article. Jytdog (talk) 03:54, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

It's just plain fact. Why do you keep trying to remove most of the "long history"? Johnbod (talk) 00:13, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

so "the sky is blue" is just plain fact. it is a fact that has no place in the scope of this article... so that is not a meaningful answer.

Editor2020 you just left an edit note saying "only off topic thing I see" in the "Observance of Mosaic law" section. Would you, and if you like, Johnbod, please say explicitly what anything in that section has to do with "Christianity and antisemitism"? The section itself makes no explicit connection. Jytdog (talk) 03:41, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, I see. You are saying the whole section is off-topic. Do you feel that this material should be covered in Anti-Judaism? Or that the background provided is unnecessary? Editor2020, Talk 15:43, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

hooray! :) yes, if i try to fill in the explicit connection for each of the sections that I deleted, as they currently stand, here is what I come up with: "here is a legitimate reason why christians think that jews are going to hell and why they should be converted, destroyed, or shunned". it just looks ugly to me. IF we were to keep subject matter in the article about "Rejection of Jesus as messiah" for example, it would not be written like it is. It would have some pretty careful (and well sourced) content introducing it that says something like: "Christians with anti-semitic beliefs or positions have used certain beliefs of Jews, some interactions between Jews and Christians, and some beliefs about Jews as justification for some part of their anti-semitic beliefs", and have nuance and examples (and sources!) in the section, to actually tie the content to the topic in a thoughtful way. but even in that context, i struggle to see what "observance of Mosaic law" has to do with the topic. (for what it is worth - and it is not much - i have engaged in a lot of structured jewish-christian dialogue and have taken several courses in jewish-christian relations and history, and "observance of mosaic law" is not a topic that comes up - I have no idea what that section has to do with the topic) And likewise I have no idea what the section on "Roman-Jewish tensions" is doing in this article. What could it have to do with Christianity and anti-semitism? (real question!) Nothing in it explicitly ties it to the topic, that's for sure. but i remain interested in what others would say, about how the current sections relate to the subject matter. Jytdog (talk) 17:42, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Christians and Jews in Muslim lands

Took it off because it is not directly related to the article and not entirely true (Ignoring the status under the pact of Omar and under the Safavid dynasty). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Setareh1990 (talk • contribs) 10:35, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Myth of persecution to christians

Do you know Candida Moss? Google it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wayquest (talk • contribs) 06:36, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

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Balance

Is there a Wikipedia article on Jewish hostility towards Christianity?101.98.74.13 (talk) 04:35, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

A Wikipedia article can be created if there is significant coverage of the matter in independent reliable sources. What sources do you have to claim that there is or has been significant Jewish hostility towards Christianity? What type of hostility? Keep in mind that entire Jewish communities were expelled from Christian nations in the name of Christianity, there were countless instances of forced conversions (sometimes resulting in Jews committing suicide because they refused to embrace what they viewed as idolatry), and at least hundreds of thousands of Jews (if not millions) were killed (even burned alive) in the name of Jesus before the Holocaust. If you can find remotely similar examples of Jews being hostile towards Christians in reliable sources then please show them. Dontreader (talk) 10:47, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

The closest thing that comes to mind is the Jewish revolt against Heraclius (614), where the Jewish rebels apparently took part in a massacre of Christians and attempted to convert the survivors to Judaism. "According to the Armenian bishop and historian Sebeos the siege resulted in a total Christian death toll of 17,000, 4,518 prisoners were massacred near Mamilla reservoir per Antiochus Strategos... Christian sources later exaggerated the extent of the massacre, claiming a death toll as high as 90,000... In addition 35,000 or 37,000 people including the patriarch Zacharias are said to have been deported to Mesopotamia.... The city is said to have been burnt down. However, neither wide spread burning nor destruction of churches have been found in the archaeological record. The search for the True Cross is said to have involved the torture of clergymen. ... "Unlike Sebeos, Antiochus uses polemical language.... Antiochus wrote that the Jews offered to help the Christian captives escape death if they "become Jews and deny Christ." They refused. In anger, the Jews then purchased Christians to kill them. A significant number of burial sites were allocated according to Antiochus. A mass burial grave at Mamilla cave was discovered in 1989 by Israeli archeologist Ronny Reich near the site where Antiochus recorded the massacre took place. The human remains were in poor condition containing a minimum of 526 individuals."

However I am not certain if the massacre of a few thousands Christians is comparable to the pogroms. Dimadick (talk) 15:33, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Dontreader read between lines here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle "..Paul was dedicated to the persecution of the early disciples of Jesus in the area of Jerusalem" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.241.1.27 (talk) 15:53, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Article on Jewish hostility to Christians can also be given if this article is given (Blake Peter (talk) 15:51, 25 June 2018 (UTC))

redundancy in first sentence

Ok,

Please if you would help me along. I am an about to be retired academic.

I, like many of you while away the hours that others reserve to sleep, and cannot escape notice of errors of logic.

The first sentence of this article (which I do have before me, because, I don't know how and yes, I am old), that beside, the opening sentence defining antisemitism refers to group a, b, and then refers to the sum todo as "all XXX".

While I do not dispute anything factual at all with this article, I do express my concern for the redundancy and the logic of the first full sentance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vete1960! (talk • contribs) 06:34, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

@Vete1960!:, here is a copy of the first sentence:

Christianity and antisemitism deals with the hostility of Christian Churches, Christian groups, and by Christians in general to Judaism and the Jewish people.

Not sure if I quite understand what you are trying to say, maybe you could be more specific, having it before you. Otoh, I find the wording of the sentence awkward, primarily because of the somewhat forced usage of the bolded title at the beginning of the sentence. Although it is customary to include the article title in the first sentence where feasible, it is by no means mandatory, and should not be done when it leads to an awkward result. Sometimes it's better just to avoid using the article title in the first sentence. See MOS:TITLEABSENTBOLD and WP:SBE. Mathglot (talk) 11:55, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2018

ok, I am new at this and have something to contribute to this article, but first the opening paragraph is redundant. antisemitism as the article begins referrers to "christian a, b, c and summates with all christian groups. While the conclusion is obvious the predicate is marbled with distinctions that within the same sentence are logically rendered irrelevant. The point is, "if I were to say that Ford, Dodge and the remaining car manufactures deceived the public on "x"", would I really be saying after unpacking the hyperbole,, "car manufactures deceived the public on "x"". Vete1960! (talk) 06:15, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done It's not clear what changes you want made. I see there's more detailed discussion in the section below, which may clear things up, but an edit request should include a specific requested change. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 12:31, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 8 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Antisemitism in Christianity per consensus below. (non-admin closure) –Ammarpad (talk) 08:18, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

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Christianity and antisemitism → Christian antisemitism – Per WP:AND, avoid the use of "and" in article titles in ways that may appear biased. feminist (talk) 04:15, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

• Support per nom and WP:PRECISE, one might guess this was largely about Christian-Jewish reconciliation. 92.249.211.146 (talk) 07:09, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
• Cautious support I think there are valid reasons to oppose either name. It could be argued, for instance, that "Christian antisemitism" makes it sound as if Christianity is inherently antisemitic, and many Christians believe that antisemitism is not Christian. However, I think the suggested name is a better choice per WP:PRECISE. Ultimately, if this page is moved, Islam and antisemitism should be moved to Islamic antisemitism to avoid any seeming bias. (Edit: another possible name would be "Antisemitism in Christianity", which echoes related articles on Antisemitism in the United States, Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party, etc.) buidhe (formerly Catrìona) 10:23, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

  I agree that Islam and antisemitism should be moved as well. feminist (talk) 14:29, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

  RM opened at Talk:Islam and antisemitism. buidhe (formerly Catrìona) 14:57, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

• Support. The existence of Christian antisemitism is not denied (except by hardcore deniers) - and does not imply that all Christians are antisemitic. I agree with Buidhe that "Antisemitism in Christianity" is also preferable to the current "and" title. Icewhiz (talk) 12:03, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support This article is about anti-Semitism in Christianity, not about how Christianity reacts to anti-Semitism, which is precisely what the proposed change in name would reflect. Debresser (talk) 14:00, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support This article is clearly about anti-Semitism within Christianity, as seen in the very first sentences of the lede: Christianity and antisemitism deals with the hostility of Christian Churches, Christian groups, and by Christians in general to Judaism and the Jewish people. Christian rhetoric and antipathy towards Jews developed in the early years of Christianity and was reinforced by the belief that Jews had killed Christ and ever increasing anti-Jewish measures over the ensuing centuries. The action taken by Christians against Jews included acts of ostracism, humiliation and violence, and murder culminating in the Holocaust.[1]:21[2]:169[3]. It is not Christianity WP:AND anti-Semitism -- that is in fact a different and wider topic, and naming it so is a whitewash at best. Furthermore, analogous action should be taken at Islam and antisemitism, a similar case.--Calthinus (talk) 02:07, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support per Icewhiz. Mathglot (talk) 08:27, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support It specifies what the topic is, which the current title fails to do. Dimadick (talk) 12:25, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose; Move to Antisemitism in Christianity. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:14, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support a change. Prefer Antisemitism in Christianity, which is also better for search & indexing purposes. Johnbod (talk) 16:13, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support alternate title Antisemitism in Christianity per above. It's clearer than both the current and the proposed title, and objectively sets the scope of the article. Bradv🍁 16:26, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Christian opposition to antisemitism listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Christian opposition to antisemitism. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  20:30, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Peter of Antioch saying "Jewish minds"

Saint Peter of Antioch referred to Christians that refused to worship religious images as having "Jewish minds".[22]

I'm looking at this book by Robert Michael, and it does say this. Yet, the author gives no source. What is the primary source for this? Peter of Antioch writing where what when? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.238.167.52 (talk) 22:31, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

More Accurate Lede Sentence

My proposal for a new lede sentence:

“ Antisemitism in Christianity is the complex of hostile beliefs and attitudes which some ordinary Christians have towards the Jewish religion and the Jewish people, based on the theology of supercession and replacement taught by Christian Churches and defined as orthodox catholic Christianity at the council of Nicaea, and expressed in the polemics of the church fathers. ”

Reasons: 1. its not a "feeling" or "mood" like sadness, happiness, or anger, which is temporary changes after a few moments or hours. It is a more or less fixed "attitude", and that "attitude" is based on "beliefs", those beliefs have been condition by preaching (and that teaching has been adequately described and dozens of citations given in the section on #Church Fathers), and that preaching proceeds from a doctrine of supercession and replacement of the Jewish people, Abrogation_of_Old_Covenant_laws, and cultural appropriation of the promises and prophecies. To call it a mere "feeling of hostility" does not in the slightest adequately describe the phenomenon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaredscribe (talk • contribs) 05:14, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jaredscribe: thanks for your proposal and analysis. I think the proposal would replace what is a now a straightforward, comprehensible lead sentence into something diving into Catholic dogma and giving far too much weight to Nicaea. That said, I understand your point about "feeling", which I interpret in the current version of the lead as meaning "attitude", but if it does, then we should just say it. So, "Antisemitism in Christianity is the feeling  attitude of hostility..." etc.; how are you with that, so far?

My main objection however, is not to the lead sentence (which no doubt could be improved) but to the rest of the lead, which is somewhere between an apologia and a whitewash and avoidance of responsibility, as it tries to couch antisemitism—incorrectly—as merely a kind of ramping up of previously existing pagan antisemitism (not at all the case: pagan antisemitism was different both in degree and in kind, and not theologically based) and the lead doesn't even mention deicide or the Gospel (esp. Matt. with forfeiture of the Kingdom of God and the blood curse). The lead sentence of paragraph starts accurately: "Christian antisemitism has been attributed to numerous factors..."—yes, absolutely true, so far, so good—and then goes on to list five factors, none of which are the major causes of it; oops! Right up there on the list ought to be Catholic dogma, Scripture and Church teaching, deicide, and theological analysis and vitriol based on the refusal of Jews to accept Christ and convert (the theme of "Jewish stubbornness", as reiterated from Jerome and Augustine to Erasmus and Luther and many others). Is a single one of those mentioned in the lead? Nope. (One important factor, namely two millennia of Church teaching, is mentioned, but perhaps should be underscored by a mention of the date of Nostra Aetate which attempted to mitigate it, and happened within the lifetime of some of our readers.) Any problems in the lead sentence are trivial in comparison to the problems in the rest of the lead, and imho should be put off until the current lead is reworked or perhaps rewritten. Mathglot (talk) 22:47, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, please do your best and I'll support when I can. Worth mentioning nostra aetate as you say.

You may put my proposed sentence further down if you wish, but these church dogmas should be in the lede. And yes, its still part of luther and calvin, not just rome.

The links could point to specific articles about cases thereof in: "Christians adopted ever-increasing anti-Jewish measures over the ensuing centuries, including acts of ostracism, humiliation, expropriation, violence, and murder" Jaredscribe (talk) 02:47, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Folding the long See also list

Do we want one, long, list of See-also links, or would it be better to fold it in order to save vertical space and scrolling so you can see it all in one screenful?

In this edit, I folded the very long "See also" list, so it appears as columns (on my laptop: three columns, thirteen articles long) so it may fit on one screen without scrolling, depending on your window width and device. In rev. 1084489387‎, user OneMeanArtist reverted, returning the list to this long list of three dozen items, which requires scrolling to see them all, since they don't all fit in one view. (In mobile view on hand-held smartphone devices, both versions look identical—one long list—as a phone doesn't have enough width to display columns.) Looking for feedback from others, on whether we should fold the See-also list or not. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 20:45, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Cander?

Luther excoriates them as "venomous beasts, vipers, disgusting scum, canders, devils incarnate." What the heck is a "cander"? Even Wiktionary doesn't have this word. Muzilon (talk) 08:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Proposed Rename this article "Jew-hatred in Christianity"

Proposal reasons given here: Talk:Religious antisemitism § Split this article into "Jew-hate in christianity", "Jew-hate in Islam", and "Anti-Judaism" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaredscribe (talk • contribs) 02:19, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Lead Section Doesn't Address Modern Anti-Semitic Sentiments

The first paragraph says that the antisemitic acts "culminated in the holocaust". There is no mention of alt-right or Christian extremists that still harbor these sentiments after World War 2. There should be acknowledgement of antisemitism in the 21st century in the lead section even if it is smaller in scope. That guy5947 (talk) 21:41, 7 March 2023 (UTC)