File talk:Treaty of Sèvres 1920.svg

Accuracy of map

@Beshogur: About the Treaty of Sèvres, I read this:

"The Sultan retained Istanbul, but under Allied control, and the rest of Anatolia, apart from large zones of influence granted under a separate document to France in the south-east, and to Italy in the south."

That is from Ataturk (2004 edition) by Andrew Mango, pp. 284-5. If I'm correct, then the current version of the map is misleading about the Treaty. The version by User:Luisao Araujo is intended to fix that problem. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:14, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Why doesn't he edit the map, instead changing it completely. I don't agree with that. Beshogur (talk) 09:19, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

So @Beshogur:, can we talk about the content of the map? Do you agree that some changes would be positive? Charles Matthews (talk) 13:03, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Andrew mango says this information on page 284 of the English book. The Turkish translation is on page 278. And neither book has any references to this information.Luisao Araujo (talk) 09:37, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Mango, cites 2256 references in his book. But he has no source for this information.Luisao Araujo (talk) 09:46, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Please See. Even the map in Greek history is more accurate than the map in this article.

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Συνθήκη_των_Σεβρών_(Ελλάς_-_Τουρκία)#/media/Αρχείο:Treaty_sevres_otoman_el.jpg

Luisao Araujo (talk) 11:11, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

@Luisao Araujo: I am citing the Mango book because I happen to have been reading it recently. As far as I can see it is a reliable source in Wikipedia's terms. So you can question that reliability, if you wish. But Beshogur wanted a discussion of the change of map. I imagine there are many scholarly sources for the Treaty of Sèvres. Please cite another, if it is better. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:03, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Mango is a reliable source of course and I use it too. However, this does not require that every piece of information he writes be absolutely correct. If the source he uses is wrong, he may also convey false information. And he did not even cite a source on this subject.

British Prime Minister David Lloyd George talks about it. Pages from 1251 to 1339. Anyone can read it. The last time he put his map was in 1339. (Lloyd George is the one who drafted the treaty.) My right to make changes on Wikipedia has been taken away from me. And I see a lot of reactions. I will not change again. You can do whatever you want about it. All the evidence shown against me speaks of the 1916-7 treaty. I see a huge bug here and no one had done a study on it. Even the people who wrote the books copied each other. Whoever made this mistake first just kept going.

If someone could prove it to me, I would thank him. I apologize to everyone for the inconvenience. I wish you good work and happy life.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.523826/page/n617/mode/2up?q=the

The link is here, anyone can read it. Lloyd George also explains why Italy and France withdrew from Anatolia.

Luisao Araujo (talk) 13:21, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I said this from the very beginning.

There is no clause in the Treaty of Sevres on zones of influence. If a second agreement has been made regarding this and there are these articles, then that agreement and its articles should be shown. It must be disclosed. And I want to read all the clauses in that agreement.

And this information should be stated separately under this title.

So it should be said: "At the date of the signing of the Treaty of Sevres, some zones of influence were defined by a second treaty. According to this treaty, this zones was left to Italy and the other region to France." Something like that.

Luisao Araujo (talk) 16:43, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I understand that you have broader issues. But this Talk page is for discussion precisely of how the image can be improved. That is its function.

Everyone here understands the difference between "reliable source" and "infallible source". Because you can say that there are no infallible sources.

We can all work on improving Wikipedia, from our different angles. But please, you were referred to me, and I have been an administrator here for 17 years. The best way to proceed is to discuss one point at a time. Charles Matthews (talk) 17:17, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Shall I show you an American source published in 1921?

https://archive.org/details/literarydigestat00upde_0/page/22/mode/2up

https://ia801308.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/6/items/literarydigestat00upde_0/literarydigestat00upde_0_jp2.zip&file=literarydigestat00upde_0_jp2/literarydigestat00upde_0_0029.jp2&id=literarydigestat00upde_0&scale=4&rotate=0

This is Greece according to the Sevres.

https://archive.org/details/literarydigestat00upde_0/page/28/mode/2up

https://ia801308.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/6/items/literarydigestat00upde_0/literarydigestat00upde_0_jp2.zip&file=literarydigestat00upde_0_jp2/literarydigestat00upde_0_0035.jp2&id=literarydigestat00upde_0&scale=2&rotate=0

And this is Turkey according to the Sevres.

You can also zoom in on the map.

Here are the real maps.Luisao Araujo (talk) 18:06, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

@Luisao Araujo: Thank you for those links. I have been reading Talk:Treaty of Sèvres#Sèvres map discussion, and it seems that there is some possibility of change of the map in that article.

The procedural point is clearer to me. The debate is easier in the form "map A or map B in this place". Charles Matthews (talk) 19:41, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@Charles Matthews: Thanks for your attention.

However, on the other hand, I must state that a person who talks about zones of influence should also indicate in which treaty it is, in which article it is written, its definition, the area it covers and the applicable principles. And moreover, between whom was this treaty signed?

On the map in the article, Turkey only appears to consist of the Yellow region. You are aware of that, right? This is the impression the map gives to people.Luisao Araujo (talk) 07:34, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

@Luisao Araujo: Yes, I understand that there are issues with current version of this map. I think the good way is, first, to argue for a different map to be used on Treaty of Sèvres. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:46, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

@Charles Matthews: All I can say is that this map is not the map of the Treaty of Sevres.

Unless the mentioned second treaty and its articles are shown and the areas of influence are proven, this information is wrong.

The plaintiff is obliged to prove his claim.Luisao Araujo (talk) 18:50, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I consulted a historian professor I know closely about this issue. He said that it was mentioned in many places, but he could not find the mentioned zones of influence and such an agreement. He said this was an unproven claim and seemed more like fabricated information.Luisao Araujo (talk) 18:57, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

@Luisao Araujo: OK, on Wikimedia Commons you can use commons:Template:Fact disputed to challenge the title used for the file.

That is in effect what you have been doing here on Wikipedia. The discussion would go on Commons, on commons:File talk:Treaty of Sèvres 1920.svg. In the end, an administrator on Commons can be asked to move the file to a different title. (I am not an administrator there.)

That decision would not necessarily change the situation on Treaty of Sèvres: it might. The discussion you started on Talk:Treaty of Sèvres might be successful, anyway. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:00, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

@Charles Matthews: I don't know how to use the link you mentioned.

And I said what I needed to say. I have nothing to add for now.

You are the admin and will make the decision. I wish you all good work.Luisao Araujo (talk) 19:13, 1 July 2021 (UTC)