File talk:Royal Military College Duntroon badge.gif

I believe this image is in the Public Domain and should be changed to CC0

I think because the emblem was first published (in hat badges, and lapel badges) in 1930 or earlier that this file is in the Public Domain. Template used below for representation only.

The Emblem has been used since at least 1930 (if not earler circa 1911-1918 when RMC opened - when WWI ended) see here https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1087818 and this states https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C300262 the copyright has expired and is in the public domain

KarmaKangaroo (talk) 08:50, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 07:12, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

KarmaKangaroo, CC0 is for public domain dedication, that's not what you're looking for. The source you link says Public Domain Mark which is different. It is also categorized as a photograph, so the question is whether that Public Domain Mark applies to the derivative work that is the photo (which in most countries wouldn't be eligible for copyright protection anyway, though Australia could be more tricky) or also the work it's based on. (the emblem) — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 14:58, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry it more for an example that the emblem has existed for at least over 50 years - the emblem that is - and that Crown Copyright expires for all works after 50 years. "Duration of Copyright#Duration for Crown Copyright". KarmaKangaroo (talk) 15:21, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy pinging @Alexis Jazz per their signature. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 18:23, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Alexis Jazz! Can you clarify what you mean by “it is categorized as a photograph”? From my reading it is categorized as a graphical representation of an official symbol, and I don’t see how that is inaccurate. It appears to be a graphic with some photorealistic detail, some non, but it does not appear to be a photograph. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 20:06, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Swarm, Collection type: Photograph, Object type: Negative — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 20:16, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Note that the hat badge has a different crown. So for the image here, you would have to determine how long the current crown is in use. But over 50 years ago, copyright is reverted to public domain. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:46, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

The Tudor Crown (from 1913-1953) and the St Edwards crown (1953 - ) is by themselves in the public domain. The use replacement of the Tudor Crown with the St Edwards crown happened with the coronation of HM Queen Elizabeth II, as was the style chosen and used in her Cypher, and customary of female sovereigns, such that from 1953r, the all emblems, accoutrements and insignia with a Royal Tudor Crown of the armed forces of the commonwealth (incl. Australia) were replaced with the St Edwards crown. Plus the unique part of the design of the actual hat badge being everything under the crown (given the Crown is an additional adornment to the emblem) existed within a few years of the opening of RMC and the creation of the CSC.

So either way, with the St Edwards crown, the emblem has existed from 1953, and in reality the unique copyrighted part portion of the badge would be under it. The same is true for all the Corps emblems (hat badges) created pre 1973, as I note many of the hat badges are listed as well under the "fair use" despite being public domain of lapsed Crown Copyright.

KarmaKangaroo (talk) 20:19, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

• I hope discussion continues, but I'm closing the request for admin help. Whatever the editors here decide, admin action is not needed. Any editor can change the license once consensus develops. If the image is indeed in the public domain, an export to commons would be reasonable. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:39, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  "History of Australian Army Corps Badges (Corps of Staff Cadets)". Found this website that has all previous hat badges approved for all Army Corps. Seems the St Edwards crown versions of the hat badges occurred in 1955, (takes a bit of time to get things done, to design, get approval (to use Crown, and Royal, as these require assent from every new monarch), however 1955 is well within the 50 year time frame of Australian Crown Copyright expiry) and so I think it has been more than proven that the hat badge should be considered public domain, as a Government work produced 68 years ago. And this is true for many of the Corps badges, and with the same rationale, all the other

  hat badges listed under Fair Use can and should be changed IMO.
  

KarmaKangaroo (talk) 20:41, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Posting a last reply, and wanting anyone who would directly oppose the change from Crown Copyright Protected and this image having to be fair use (and the things that come with that) to Public Domain as an Expired Crown Copyright.

To summarise everything thus far, facts and then arguments.

Crown Copyright is, from the wiki Crown Copyright:

s 176(2) and s 177 of the Copyright Act 1968 (Cth) Act provide that the Australian Government [...] owns copyright in an original literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work:

• made by or under the direction or control of that government, or
• first published in Australia by or under the direction or control of that government.

And, s 180 of the act states that:

• Copyright in such copyright material subsists until 50 years after the calendar year in which the material is made (s. 180).

This means that for a copyrighted work to be in the Public Domain, it must have been created or first published prior to 1 Jan 1973, that being 50 years from the start of the calendar year of 2023.

• The Corps of Staff Cadets badge, as with all other corps and regiment badges that existed prior to the death of His Majesty King George VI in 1952, were topped with the Tudor Crown as he chose for his Cypher (and as is tradition for reigns of male sovereign).
• In 1953 after her coronation in 1953, HM Elizabeth II opted for a stylised image of this crown to be used on coats of arms and other insignia in Commonwealth realms to symbolise her royal authority replacing those topped with the Royal Tudor Crown
• The Corps badge's of the Australian Army were officially changed to the St. Edward's Crown in 1955.
• The Crown topping the badges have been in existence for 100s of years, and their use, or the changing of them would not constitute a new original design for the purposes of copyright. However, the two crowns are cited below as existing prior to 1973.

Sources of date of creation or publishing

• The College opened in 1911 and the current badge was approved in 1912. _{[Jobson, Chritopher. Looking Forward Looking Back – Customs and Traditions of the Australian Army (PDF). Big Sky Publishing. p. 100. ISBN 9780980325164. Archived (PDF) from the original on 2023-11-25. Retrieved 2023-11-25.]} and secondly here also _{"History of Australian Army Corps Badges". Retrieved 2023-11-25.}

• A hat with the Corps of Staff Cadets badge is at the AWM, and dates to circa 1913 _{["Football honour cap : Cadet Officer Norman Clowes, Royal Military College, Duntroon". Australian War Memorial. Retrieved 2023-11-25.]}
• Lastly, just to satisfy the crown issue mentioned above here is a source from 1965 (which is <1973) showing the St Edward's Crown atop the CSC Badge, on pages 1,3,5 _{[Maj I. B. Mackay, ed. (December 1965). "Journal of the Royal Military College of Australia". XLII (53). Canberra, Australia. pp. 1–5. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)]}

I think the above points adequately and beyond doubt proves that the Corps of Staff Cadets badge is in the public domain because its Crown Copyright has expired.

KarmaKangaroo (talk) 16:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

References