File talk:Greater Israel map.jpg
Resolution edit
could you please upload this in PNG format. It is the best format for non-vector images.ElectrifiedSpork (talk) 03:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
This map has some problems, since it's quite controversial whether or not the "River of Egypt" in Genesis 15:18 even refers to the Nile at all (there are many reputable Biblical scholars who don't think it does). Furthermore, if "Euphrates" in this passage refers to anything concrete and specific in history, then it presumably refers to Solomon's trade outpost at Tiphsah in the bend of the upper Euphrates in northwestern Syria. Also, highlighting modern countries (which didn't exist ca. 1500 B.C.!) by coloring them with prominently contrasting colors, does nothing to add clarity to the map. It would be more useful to Wikipedia to create a map which captures one of the concrete detailed geographic territorial descriptions contained in the Bible, such as the circuit of Canaan in Numbers ch. 34, or the descriptions of the territories allocated to the twelve tribes in Joshua chs. 13-22, etc., becuase Genesis 15:18 is not a specific concrete geographical description -- it's a very vague phrase... AnonMoos (talk) 21:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
- Anon, clearly you are not a Jew. Jews feel very strongly about this definition of Greater Israel, as explained in the Land of Israel article. The striking resemblance with the Kingdom of David is no coincidence.
- The argument about the Brook of Egypt has its own page. Here I drew the Pelusian branch of the Nile; in my other map of the land of Israel, I drew the wadi el-arish. That's my imperfect attempt at WP:NPOV.
- Regarding the "geographical territorial descriptions" you mention, they do not belong to this hypothetical map whose sole purpose is to illustrate a single, short Biblical passage; a single map cannot show everything. Other maps are available (or should be). Look in the Canaan and the Israelite articles. If you need help creating the map you describe, I would be glad to help by providing blank images.
- As for the colors indicating modern states, it is the solution I thought most appropriate to link this ancient map with the modern world. It also answers an almost universal question about the limits of the Land of Israel. Wikipedia is written for lay readers, not museum curators. I do, however, agree that their color came out too strong. If I ever edit this map, I'll make them paler. Emmanuelm (talk) 13:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- Whatever -- my Jewishness or lack thereof is neither here nor there, and your raising the issue does very little to establish an environment conducive to constructive coooperative conversation. The article Brook of Egypt seems to be "owned" by User:Kuratowski's Ghost, with rather unfortunate long-term results. And it would be possible to show the borders of modern states on a Biblical map without giving distracting prominence to these borders by coloring in the areas of the modern states in pastel colors. See commons:Image:Early-Historical-Israel-Dan-Beersheba-Judea.png for a map which marks some modern boundaries for reference, but reserves the use of colored areas for things which were actually relevant during Biblical times. And the fact remains that the phrase in Genesis 15:18 is extremely vague and of highly disputed meaning, and so does not usefully lend itself to being depicted on a map. AnonMoos (talk) 22:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- Anon, I did not mean to mock you, only to remind you that different religions read the same text differently. For reasons I do not understand, rabbis have decided that Genesis 15:18 is very important to Jews.
- As for your criticism of the intensity of the colors, I accept it with great joy, as it implies that you found no mistake in the content of the map. Wow, that's great!
- Finally, about this passage being too vague to map, I was arguing that same point myself back in November. But criticism from many places convinced me to at least try. Emmanuelm (talk) 15:01, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
- You drew red lines along the upper Euphrates and the east edge of the Nile delta very nicely; the question is whether these red lines are particularly meaningful, and whether the overall map is useful for Wikipedia. AnonMoos (talk) 14:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
- I drew what Genesis 15 said and yes, this passage is meaningful. Now, you may disagree with the details of my map, but please do so constructively. Would you prefer this map, this one or maybe one of the several maps in this collection? Emmanuelm (talk) 15:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
- You drew red lines along the upper Euphrates and the east edge of the Nile delta very nicely; the question is whether these red lines are particularly meaningful, and whether the overall map is useful for Wikipedia. AnonMoos (talk) 14:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Is the whole thing "greater isreal" or is it one of the colours? Nice map but pretty useless to simple curious party, rather than one with a pre-existing intrest or knowledge, without some sort of key. 75.191.157.40 (talk) 06:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
