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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
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Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
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Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
Naseem Hamed | New | Mac Dreamstate (t) | 8 days, 18 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 13 hours | Jahalive (t) | 12 hours |
Primerica | Closed | TermLifeOG (t) | 4 days, 16 hours | Kovcszaln6 (t) | 4 days, 14 hours | Kovcszaln6 (t) | 4 days, 14 hours |
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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 19:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
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Current disputes edit
Naseem Hamed edit
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Mac Dreamstate (talk · contribs)
- ActionHeroesAreReal (talk · contribs)
- Abo_Yemen (talk · contribs)
- JFHJr (talk · contribs)
- Jahalive (talk · contribs)
- The_MK (talk · contribs)
- GoodDay (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
There is an impasse on how to describe, in the lead section, this boxer who was born in the UK, has only ever resided in the UK, and has only competed under a British boxing licence. He has Yemeni parents, which may qualify him for citizenship by descent. Various MOS have been invoked: MOS:ETHNICITY, MOS:IDENTITY, WP:NPOV, and WP:WEIGHT.
In the boxing world and Western mainstream media, he is primarily notable as a British boxer; in the Arab world, his Yemeni heritage is heavily emphasised. There are numerous reliable Western sources which describe him as solely British, and some Arab sources (of varying reliability) which describe him as Yemeni. Hamed self-describes as "British-Yemeni" or "Yemeni" on social media, and did so during his career by means of Yemeni flags and other symbology.
Extensive discussion at the talk page has resulted in a three vs three dispute on how to word the lead section: "British professional boxer", "British-Yemeni professional boxer", or "British professional boxer of Yemeni descent".
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:Naseem Hamed#British / British-Yemeni
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Assist us in deciding how to describe Hamed in the opening sentence of the lead section, and whether it needs to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis or per the abovementioned MOS'es.
Summary of dispute by ActionHeroesAreReal edit
Summary of dispute by Abo_Yemen edit
Summary of dispute by JFHJr edit
Greetings. I am a WP:BLPN volunteer and have participated in talkpage discussion but never edited this article. Because the subject identifies as Yemeni as supported by at least one reliable reference, I'm comfortable with that self-identification appearing anywhere in the article. I'm also of the position that WP:BLP and related either outweigh WP:MOS concerns or present a defensible position to WP:IAR. I do believe an identity datum as basic as this merits reasonable WP:WEIGHT. I do not agree with disputing its presence in the lede, even if it's worth exactly one mention in the body. Otherwise, I'd comment of the overall dispute that concerns stated and implied on the talkpage regarding chauvinism (countries claiming a champion) are themselves inherently chauvinistic. I'm not from either one. I have no committed preference for how this is resolved other than finding a resolution. Ta. JFHJr (㊟) 01:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- PS. If it aids resolution in this matter, I'm willing to walk-back my concerns (see talkpage) about Variety, iff the only thing used is identity/ethnicity. First, see WP:RSNP for the safety indicator. Second, this is tantamount to a safe WP:BLPSPS for the sole purpose used. This is actually an innocuous matter, despite the back and forth. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 03:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Jahalive edit
Summary of dispute by The_MK edit
First of all, contrary to the dispute overview, it was mentioned that only some (which are Arab) sources mentioned “Yemeni” or “British-Yemeni”, this is false, 3 sources (which are [1], [2], [3]) inserted in the discussion has stated “British-Yemeni” or has mentioned him being of Yemeni heritage and are not Arab sources at all, and are in-fact mostly western, with only two sources provided being Arab. For the summary of dispute, I’ve inserted several sources that prove the notability of Naseem’s Yemeni heritage, with him identifying as a Yemeni, and raising the Yemeni flag in a lot of his fights, and other acts of emphasis and symbology of him being Yemeni. All of this makes him being Yemeni/of Yemeni origins notable to his identity, and hence as per WP:ETHNICITY we would have to mention both British and Yemeni, because if not, that would be a violation of WP:NPOV as we are only taking into consideration him being British only, even if being Yemeni is as or more notable to his identity. At first I supported “British-Yemeni” in the lede but for more clarity, we should say “British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage” as we can’t confirm him having only one citizenship as per Yemeni naturalization law, he was always qualified for citizenship by descent (as both his parents are Yemeni), also using “British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage” allows us to include sources for both “British” and “Yemeni”. |MK| 📝
Naseem Hamed discussion edit
First statement by volunteer (Naseem Hamed) edit
I am ready to act as the moderator for this dispute. It appears that there is a dispute over what to say the subject's nationality is. Are there any other content issues? Please read DRN Rule A, and indicate whether you are willing to take part in moderated discussion in accordance with the rules. Please state, in one paragraph, what you think should be listed as the subject's nationality, and why that should be listed as his nationality. It appears that we may have to use an RFC. If anyone has any suggestions for compromise in place of an RFC, please provide the suggestion now. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:08, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
First statements by editors (Naseem Hamed) edit
Are there any other content issues?
Nationality yes. Things like the adjective and the flag might (probably) point equally to ethnicity and heritage. This wider scope captures more of the nuance per talkpage discussions and proposed citations. I don't think this has rabbit-holed too far into nationality in the legal sense, nor citizenship. It's akin to asking how "Italian-American" an athlete would be, first generation (and flying the Italian flag, and who has self-described as Italian in a non-self-serving claim). Thank you Robert McClenon! JFHJr (㊟) 05:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- My main argument was the notability of his Yemeni heritage, which I believe has been proven, and hence we have to say “British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage” so that it can conform to WP:ETHNICITY, and if we just say “British” in the lede that would be a violation of that policy. About self description, first of all all that was provided was not a self-published source, but a source that shared what he said, second of all, there are multiple sources (in my dispute summary, that were in the talk page of Naseem’s article) inserted that mention his Yemeni heritage, hence we would be able to cite both “British” and “Yemeni heritage”. |MK| 📝 21:35, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Having given it some thought, I'm willing to compromise solely in favour of "British professional boxer of Yemeni descent" if an equal ratio of Western and Arab-centric sources are presented at the end of that sentence. I remain opposed to "British-Yemeni", as it breaks too far with WP's own MOSes and implies in WP's voice that he is a dual Yemeni resident, when he certainly is not. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 14:56, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- How do you get specifically to residency from the adjective? Nobody is talking about where he lives. JFHJr (㊟) 15:48, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- That's just how I would interpret WP's voice as a reader. That he must've be a citizen and thereby a resident at some point. By keeping them at separate ends of the lead, it states that as of right now he's a British subject first and foremost, which is how the boxing world knows him. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 16:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- That’s the thing, he always had the option to gain a Yemeni citizenship, however we can’t confirm weather he has it or not, hence “British professional boxer of Yemeni descent” is a suitable option. I also have no problems with “British-Yemeni”. As I said, we would be able to cite both “British” and “of Yemeni descent” separately. It also complies with WP’s policies more than just “British” as stated above, we would also be able to do the same with “British-Yemeni”. |MK| 📝 18:09, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- How do you get specifically to residency from the adjective? Nobody is talking about where he lives. JFHJr (㊟) 15:48, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- Having given it some thought, I'm willing to compromise solely in favour of "British professional boxer of Yemeni descent" if an equal ratio of Western and Arab-centric sources are presented at the end of that sentence. I remain opposed to "British-Yemeni", as it breaks too far with WP's own MOSes and implies in WP's voice that he is a dual Yemeni resident, when he certainly is not. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 14:56, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
I thought this was settled. He's British. GoodDay (talk) 22:21, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Second statement by volunteer (Naseem Hamed) edit
Is the question only about what to say in the lede sentence? Is there also a question about the body of the article? I am also asking each editor, again, what do you want listed in the lede sentence as his nationality and ethnicity, and why that is how it should be listed. If you have already answered this question, please answer it again. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:39, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Second statements by editors (Naseem Hamed) edit
- I think it's already described and reffed sufficiently in the body. I think "British-Yemeni" is just fine for the lede based on the body (reffed) and the subject's own identity. The Variety ref that I previously opposed and now feel ok about might help. JFHJr (㊟) 05:05, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
I am willing to take part in the discussion following Wikipedia:DRN Rule A.
I think his nationality should be described as British. MOS:ETHNICITY explains that when "the person is notable mainly for past events" as Mr. Hamed is, the country "where the person was ... when they became notable" should be in the opening paragraph. He lived, trained and competed mostly in the UK. He has not lived, trained or competed in Yemin. The same section of the MOS also says "Ethnicity, ... should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability." His ethnicity is not relevant to his notability.
I don't think there is any dispute about the body of the article.--Jahalive (talk) 22:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- First of all it’s spelled "Yemen", second of all, we’ve already proved the notability of him being Yemeni, the main discussion is weather we say “British professional boxer of Yemeni descent” or “British-Yemeni”. |MK| 📝 07:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Third statement by volunteer (Naseem Hamed) edit
Did you read DRN Rule A in detail? Rule A.9 says: Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion to statements by other editors; that is, do not reply to the comments of other editors.
Maybe I should move it closer to the top.
I have prepared a draft RFC in Talk:Naseem Hamed/RFC on Ethnicity. Please review it and comment on it. Do not vote on it yet, because it isn't active. After we agree on it, I will move it to the talk page and activate it by pulling out the deactivating things.
Are there any other questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- This RFC has been posted to the two RFC categories. Did you intend for this to happen yet?- Jahalive (talk) 19:12, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Third statements by editors (Naseem Hamed) edit
It looks good. I think those are the three options that have been disputed.--Jahalive (talk) 19:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Primerica edit
Closed. There has not been extensive discussion on the article's talk page. Please try to continue the discussion there and back your arguments using reliable sources. Also, the filing editor failed to notify the involved editors. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 16:46, 31 May 2024 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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